mikebv
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Posts posted by mikebv
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10 minutes ago, Hacksaw Jim Duggan said:That is just patently nonsense.
Filibustering gibberish...
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12 minutes ago, Hacksaw Jim Duggan said:It is still relevant to the general point which is - people will turn up regardless of who is on show, yes they will, just not many, or for that matter even close to as many.
As an addition re what you are saying, if it was a truism the promotion would be best served not bothering their time with the Premiership and simply going Championship.... same crowds, less costs etc - they don't and it will be decision mad from far sounder grounding that which you are saying, which only further shows to say what you are saying is really what you wish to be true rather than that would be.
If the Championship was the 'only ticket in town' and the Aces ran at weekends, then crowds would be better than on a Monday or a Thursday night..100%..
Hence the business plan from Messrs Gordon and Morton to the council made it crystal clear that the race night change from Monday and Wednesday was fundamental to their success..
The first year, riding at weekend in the main, they averaged around 1800 which was a massive increase on the previous year at the old place..
Unfortunately over 2000 was their break even budget outlined in their submissions..
The past two seasons haven't seen them get close to an average of 1800 I believe...
Maybe, just maybe, Monday, Wednesdays and Thursdays are not as good?
Or maybe it's having no Matej Zagar after year one?
Going back to the Colts, if they were the only Speedway team going in Manchester, they would still get very decent crowds at weekends I would say..
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15 minutes ago, Hacksaw Jim Duggan said:This video suggests you are talking absolute bollocks - date, a Friday night - there is next to no one thereto simply go out and see the Aces race no matter the rider in the jacket.
It's a Colts meeting though, not a Championship level one which I believe the Aces could run well on a Saturday night..
And having been to many Colts meetings they do get crowds of around 400 to 500 I would say, so not too shabby..
Obviously the back straight isn't used..
Good to see you on here though Oscar Wilde...
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45 minutes ago, W9 Lion said:Doyle was not World Champion at Leicester. I think you only have to look at two factors as to why the crowds increased at Leicester last year.; 1. The change back to Saturday nights, 2. A winning team for the first time since the club returned in 2011.
For Leicester to continue to grow their crowds they need to keep on winning & remain "a Saturday nght club" then hopefully we can get back to the level of support we received in the first three seasons, or even higher.
Which to get back to their initial success levels means second tier racing for me..
Too much of a risk to go top tier again given the way attendances dropped off..
For me, there should be a 'natural selection' used..
Over 1000 fans on average over a season each meeting and you should be top division
600 to 1000 and you run 2nd Divison..
Less than 600 should be NL..
Organic growth then dictates levels. If you start to get more fans then go up a level, if you get less, then drop..
Natural selection..
And race on whatever night you want to..
Whichever night brings the most punters in..
Not on ones that you are made to because your 'employees' tell you that's the only days they can make it.. (That's madness).
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1 hour ago, DC2 said:But there’s no evidence that the first caused the second.
Spot on..
In the past 30 years attendances have steadily declined overall and for much of that continual decline we had the 'world's best' riding, which, to keep them, meant regular inflation busting admission increases year on year, which in no small part, resulted in less followers..
The Premiership clubs get the best attendances because there is a 'natural' selection based on the history of each club, not because of 'who is there'..
If the Aces dropped down for example, and rode on Friday or Saturdays, there certainly wouldn't be any less there than currently, and quite possibly many more given how many attended 'weekend Speedway' the first year in the NSS. Therefore the Aces have enough followers to be 'top division'..
Glasgow I would suggest now get close to, if not better than, some Premiership clubs' attendances with 'lesser' riders (although many are the same!), so they are becoming a bigger name in the sport after historically being one of the 'lower league clubs'. After a few years of this they too may become 'naturally' a top division team if the crowds keep at those levels..
Leicester dropped a division, lost the World Champ, changed nights and improved crowds. Meaning their 'natural level' to be successful as a business is, I would suggest, the second tier..
And Cradley in the NL had better crowds than Wolves and if they had a track to race on would immediately be top division I would say given that's their 'natural' level given their crowd numbers...
Some clubs in the second division could have Nikki P and Jason Crump riding for them next year and after a month I can virtually guarantee crowds would be pretty much as normal, because that is their 'natural level of crowd', hence they stay where they are..
Bringing 'big names' back wont bring 'big crowds' back.
Because when they were all there, big crowds became smaller crowds..
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1 hour ago, foamfence said:Crewe and Crayford where in the days of uprights, these days you have laydowns struggling to negotiate tracks that were OK for uprights but are too narrow and the wrong shape for laydowns (with a very small number of exceptions). We've had loads of Speedway meetings on YouTube etc over the last few days, some of them were advertised as 'great meetings' and as someone who started his Speedway involvement in the early 50s, I quite looked forward to them but in the main it's been a borefest. I hope it has a future but I see it more as a part-time or amateur sport here, as it is it's unsustainable.
Watched loads of recent meetings on YouTube and there is a huge clear difference between the racing standards from track to track..
In no particular order..
The NSS, Somerset, Redcar, and Scunthorpe seem to have the majority of their races close and with passing, with Glasgow, Berwick and Peterborough having several 'very decent races' in the next level down..
Not seen too much from anywhere else to be honest other than an odd decent race per meeting, with some tracks getting you to 'move on' to the next coverage after four or five heats such is the lack of any close action post bend two..
It must be hard to sell the racing at some tracks..
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5 minutes ago, HGould said:Mike,
I love reading your posts and respect your views very much.
To consider though that any but a handful of CL tracks would break even let alone make money for such an event would be more accurate an assessment.
I don't get the obsession with finals at the NSS either?..
I think a lot of promotors with a September start will be thinking 2 local derbies home and away to cut costs optimise crowds and make few quid for the long winter as season tickets and sponsorship next winter just not going to happen.
I am sure your idea will be nearer the mark than mine HG..
I just think the sport has a truly once in a lifetime unique situation to reinvent itself, work together for the overall good and try something different..
Riders too would need to play ball and agree to ride here, there and everywhere over a few weeks..
I could just imagine what the promotion team down at the Isle of Wight would do if they had the likes of Messrs Cook, Nicholls, King and Harris riding there. It would be the talk of the island for years and would generate loads of publicity for the track...
And maybe Woffy could visit too as a wild card! It would be like a royal visit by the time Barry Bishop and the rest had finished with it!!.
For far too long promoters have looked insular, always delivering their own individual narrow agenda as a priority. A tiny agenda in the grand scheme of team sports given Speedway's small following from track to track..
This could be a chance to 'sell the sport' itself nationally and see where that takes them...
45000 plus go to Cardiff each year so there is still a very sizeable following out there if more of them can be persuaded to attend domestic speedway more regularly, so put an operating plan together which may attract them to do so..
As for the NSS?, for me it's simply the racing and the facilities it delivers..
And if you want to showcase a major final then it ticks two major boxes, with the third major box ticked being it's held very close to a major city centre that has excellent transport links and plenty of hotel rooms..
Not many other tracks can deliver all that I would say..
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6 hours ago, jchapman said:I agree that team meetings should be written off, however if the government restrictions allow it I would hope a few open meetings could be held before end of October
With 22 clubs in total in the UK, and around 50 British riders of a 'top three division' level (some taking a break from the sport, some recently retired but may be tempted back?), would it possible for every club to put in say £5k and run a £110,000 prize fund British Championship? Using the sponsorship money already agreed for the season with their sponsors?
Lots of qualifying meetings around the country. (One a week at each track). But advertising the "£110k Big Prize" in all their promotion of each individual event?
Paying out an average £600 a night per rider in the qualifying meetings, running a 12 man entry, and that's around £9k you would need to take to pay the riders and pay the VAT..
Would you get away with around 12k costs in total per night?
(Maybe rents could be renogotiated given stadium owners will have had zero income?)
If so 800 paying £15 would cover costs..
Riders would get to ride four or five times a week around the country (maybe more but five times would get the 'Mr Average' rider £3k a week), and the sport could advertise a "Big Time" prize fund which may generate some added interest from others outside of the sport, or, more likely maybe, lapsed fans or non regulars...
If any 'top name' non British riders are available, maybe domiciled over here, and happy to race for the money, they could either be 'guested' in for the odd night as a wild card whose scores won't impact the overall competition. (Similar how other motor sports like BSB let a world level competitor compete in a National Championship on an ad hoc basis), or, if they can commit to the full competiton, take a place in the line up. (Plenty of UK based overseas riders have rode in, and won BSB Championships)..
Run the Final for £110k at the NSS with the top 16 riders from all the qualifiers..
Plenty of racing for British lads in particular, plenty of money to be earned riding several nights a week, and a massive prize fund with which to increase the sports' standing and hopefully deliver a huge crowd (and media coverage), for the final...
Whatever Speedway we do get (if any) those who run it should spend this time thinking outside of the box and how best they can make a huge impact when 'normality' returns, as they will be fighting against other sports relaunching themselves too, and there will only be so much 'leisure money' available to be spent. .
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47 minutes ago, MattK said:You have drawn a conclusion, without knowing how the question was asked. If people were asked for their top reason, then you cannot say only 40% are interested in teams/riders.
The question mentioned that was asked in the thread was 'Why did they attend Speedway meetings?'
I presume it was the No1 reason for your attendance requested at the time given the amount of diverse answers from the fans..
I would suggest that there are even a greater number nowadays that attend Speedway who go for 'the racing' rather than treat the league seriously and get that emotional attachment to any result.
Getting these people to go more regularly is the key to success, as those who go because they still feel an affinity with their team will go anyway..
The 800 to 1000 or so die hards at most top league tracks will always be there, wearing their scarves and badges and talking about the 'good old days'.
Its the floating 800 to a 1000 who go along now and again which will make a huge difference to the sports finances if they became regulars..
The sport should work together as a collective on finding out what prevents these fans of the sport going more regularly..
And then act upon it accordingly, together..
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2 hours ago, *JJ said:I don't see this. In my team, when we went into the Elite League, two 'star riders' made themselves cordially disliked; and they didn't cause any increase in attendances. Then, when the team dropped into the third division, there wasn't any drop in the crowds. More often, IMO, what causes the crowd to diminish is perpetually losing teams, like another team in the Midlands.
Interesting that the old 15 year survey on another thread had only 30% of fans attending in the main to 'support their team', and only 10% went based on the quality of riders on show..
And that was when more 'top names' rode over here..
Therefore, presuming the %'s are still similar, (and I would think they are not a million miles away), what an opportunity to put on 'entertaining Speedway' in whatever guise it can..
When 70% go and watch and are not unduly bothered which team wins, then they are a real target market for each track to have them go away thinking "that night was great, I'll be back next time"..
The promoters should spend this down time working out how to deliver 'a great night out' when the sport returns, rather than spending time getting slide rules out to determine whether 'Rider A' can guest for 'Rider B' in a meeting that only 3 in 10 fans in attendance are bothered who wins...
A huge opportunity for fundamental radical change..
Will it be taken?
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3 hours ago, arnieg said:I knew I had this info somewhere - just come across this.
[NOTE - it is 15 years old but given the high proportion of long term fans it seems unlikely to have changed much]
70% of people who attend speedway meetings are male and 30% female. 20% bring their children
81% attend 10 or more meetings per season confirming that the sport is down to its hard core fans.
Speedway fans are not particularly high earners with 31% earning below £20k and 39% earning between £21k – 40k. Their relatively low socio-demographics are also confirmed by the fact that 63% read The Star, The Sun or The Mirror.
Also 31% have no qualifications and another 45% are educated to GCSE/O Level. Only 9% hold a university degree.
17% are 19-24 years old, 21% 25-34 years old and 23% 35-49 years old.
All in all, this does represent a segment of society which is not particularly interesting to sponsors.
Around 20% of people attend meetings with their kids, 63% with family adults and 72% attend with 1-3 other people.
What is interesting is the response the respondents gave when asked why attended speedway meetings:
Support the home team 30%
The atmosphere 23%
A good night out 20%
Quality of the teams 10%
Family night out 6%
Other 11%
Total 100%
source : 2007 Marketing Report commissioned by BSPA
So only 40% used to go to follow a team or go because of what quality of riders were there...
And that was 15 years ago when more "names" were riding in the UK..
It really shows for me how important an overall entertainment package must be in keeping the majority 60% happy, and also shows how misguided promoters sometimes are focusing the majority of their time, energy and money on getting their teams right (all to try and win competitions hardly anyone cares about), instead of putting all that focus and investment on getting their entertainment package right each week...
As you say, the % figures probably haven't changed much in the ensuing fifteen years, apart from obviously how many fewer people now make up that 60% than did then..
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Some of the 'old stuff' on YouTube wouldn't get seen in a good light by a wider non Speedway audience if shown on the mainstream channels, simply because so much of it was filmed with production qualities which were 'wedding video' standard, and many commentaries were pretty average, done by well meaning amateurs...
No fault of whoever produced them, that was just the technology of the time outside of the main TV channels..
Even the newly formed Satellite company's old work looks well dated (as done in SD), and often one camera action...
Watching the many meetings available does though show that, for me, so much of what we have today is at least as good, and often better, racing wise, than the 'old stuff', and some of the production standards are excellent..
I would suggest a decent marketing team could make something out of the raw material of the racing and would be able to make personalities out of the riders if given a chance...
Employing one of them to do a joined up national advertising campaign using the best clips from today during this 'down time', would be far better for the sport than just putting out random Speedway on TV (to a mainly non plussed audience), I would say..
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16 hours ago, waytogo28 said:As for will speedway survive - yes it will in some shape or form " but as we know it" ( or have known it ) IMHO. But it will become , I think, an even paler shadow of it's former self before being lost, like Peter Pan's shadow.
As for Mr Godfrey saying that no clubs are likely to go to the wall - wasn't it Mandy Rice Davies who said " well he would say that wouldn't he?" . Or was it Christine Keeler?
Don't the majority of clubs lose money each year?
If so, it could actually help some clubs to 'bank' what they would usually spend and then use it next year..
I personally am saving loads of money every week by not spending money on non essentials and usually I am skint every month, therefore clubs who lose money every week will (at the very least) now be breaking even..
ie none coming in and none going out..
I suppose a threat could be that some of the sponsors may not be able to continue their support until they can assess the impact of lockdown to their own businesses, however..
For me, Speedway's 'hand to mouth' existence may actually help it to weather the storm as it doesn't have long term contracts to its participants to honour, nor, in the main, up keep to pay for stadiums it owns, as most clubs rent. It also is pretty much based on volunteers rather than contracted staff on race nights and for admin, so won't be paying any wages to them during the downtime. ..
And it also hasn't put itself in hock based on a huge TV contract, spending money it hasn't recieved yet..
Who knows, not losing money this year for many teams may be a blessing in disguise when the sport restarts?
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56 minutes ago, Super Blue said:It just shows sadly how Speedway has fallen in popularity over the years, those were definitely 'the good old days' to quote a much used expression.
To be fair, football had an ever dwindling fan base through the 80's and it needed laws about stadium improvements, and Sky's money, to deliver what we have today..
And football was very lucky that Sky's intervention coincided with Man United ending their 26 year wait for the league title in 93, and subsequent 20 odd year domination which delivered huge interest..
If the first winners of the Premier Leagues early years had been 'lesser teams' then football wouldn't have taken off the way it did in the UK as Sky simply wouldn't have had the uptake of subscribers.
Speedway considering it's complete lack of awareness within the wide majority of the public, and the almost zero nationally joined up marketing, does 'ok' for me crowd wise..
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Just watched the documentary..
Absolutely first class both in terms of production quality and content...
Well done to all who made and contributed to it..
Only possible gripe is that, in parts, it might have helped if it had subtitles. .
Overall though..
Pure deed brulliant by tha way....
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23 minutes ago, TB1 said:On the sporting front, I don't see anything happening for months as the ban on mass gatherings will be in place for a long time I think. The problem then will be will people want to go to sports events and be surrounded by lots of other people? If that is the case then low crowds could kill certain venues quicker than the current shutdown.
Thats a definite possibility...
There won't be 'safety net' Govt cash so venues will stand or fall by the uptake of the punters..
Personally after the 'all clear' I would go out, but not sure everyone would be in the same mindset..
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7 hours ago, Shrub said:I believe the reason so many people seem to trivialise 'flu is because 'A touch of the flu' is what many will tell their boss was the reason they weren't at work yesterday. Or a football manager saying this player is missing today due to a dose of flu but they're back playing a few days later. Of course in both cases they've had a cold but feel the need to pep it up a bit. A cold can be unpleasant but is nowhere near as horrible or debilitating as a real dose of flu. Only this afternoon on the increasingly hysteria driven 5 Live a virologist when comparing influenza and Covid 19 dismissed flu as a virus that makes you feel bad for a few days but you're well after five days - clearly someone who's never had 'flu.
Many simply won't believe that 'the trivial' little illness that they use to pull a sickie really can be a killer. It's just a spot of flu, right?
Spot on..
Only had 'the flu' once, around 30 years ago and I remained in bed for a week with two visits from the doctor as there was no chance of me going out to see him..
My then girlfriend told me when I was back on my feet that the she knew I wasnt well when she asked me what I was doing and I told her that i was "washing the pots". And the sink was empty.
She decided I wasnt quite fit to drive to work so put me to bed and given the amount of sweating and shaking also decided to phone the emergency doctor.
I lost over a stone in a weeks bed rest through sweating..
Since then, as a supermarket manager, whenever anyone calls in sick with "I have this flu that's going around so wont be in today, but I will be in tomorrow" I do laugh....
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20 minutes ago, MattK said:As I've said before, I don't believe tinkering with the format or structure will make one iota of difference when it comes to attracting new fans.
You can stop pandering to other countries, but the number of riders impacted is much greater than the three you mentioned, as I shown here.
Marketing to kids is fine, but it requires complete overhaul of how a speedway meeting is run. Everything from the music to the presentation to programmes needs to be thrown in the bin and re-designed to appeal to your target market. I think that is too much of a step change and risks alienating existing customers. A far more sensible approach is to market speedway to exactly the people who already make up the majority of your customer-base, which is the over 50s.
That would be my plan..
There are millions out there who dont know what Speedway is but to try and get them to attend regularly is probably a non starter..
So target the many, many thousands of 40 and 50 somethings who 'used to go' and know Speedway exists but (previously) must have enjoyed going for at least some of the time..
Getting them back must be easier than recruiting new customers..
Providing or course you dont deliver the same satisfaction levels that saw them leave the sport in the first place...
To attract the millions who dont go would always be the utopian plan, but that would take money, which those who run the sport seem loathed to spend on marketing, so try and connect with your ex customers and see if you can get them interested again..
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1 minute ago, Tim G said:People will go to these events, you only had to look at the crowds at Cheltenham when people already knew about coronavirus.
The authorities letting these events happen is a difficult one, they need to get the economy going but also need to protect the NHS.
I think Cheltenham was at the start of the 'finally realisation is dawning' period so got away with it. .
One week later and it wouldn't have taken place. .
And given the fall out as to how many who attended have since tested postive for the virus I wouldn't think it will be seen as a postive thing to have attended, it and may make others think twice post "the official all clear"..
I think there will definitely be a week or two of plenty of people not wishing to put themselves back into crowded areas and will hang back a little to wait and see if actually all is really 'ok'..
Not to mention the financial hit on those who may have to start paying more for bills and mortgages as they have had a payment holiday...
Can't see a "throng" of people attending unless other sports like football maybe have a phased increasing restriction on numbers over a period of time, which means some may want to get their sporting fix elsewhere..
Plenty more popular sports in the queue first though even if that happens..
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3 hours ago, Falcon1983 said:Think Woffy would probably be more like 300% more in costs but all depends on his earnings in Poland if they are not as agreed he may want to top up his earnings
When it comes to the very top riders I actually thinks its the away tracks that generally get the biggest uplifts and benefits..
When Jason Crump came back one year to the Aces we saw a 600 or so uplift initially. But many of those were fans who had stopped going as the team were so poor..
It lasted about two matches before crowds started to drift back and we ended up with only slightly more than were there pre Crumpys return as the 'novelty' wore off..
It would have been interesting to see NP's impact to Sheffield and JC's to Ipswich, to see if home crowds reduced as the season went by and the 'wow factor' wore off. I would suspect though that their planned four visits to the NSS however would have delivered their best crowds of the year..
If they didnt have a prior engagement obviously. It is noticeable isnt it how many top riders often miss away matches due to their wider calendar yet never seem to have any clashes at home? (Matej Zagar appeared to have a 'few' clashes of meetings when we visited Lakeside I seem to remember.)
Strange that....
Maybe taking a leaf out of Rugby and Crickets operating model and centrally contract seven top riders could work..? One for each track..
Take a contract and you commit to racing every meeting. That way every track will benefit from having 'two stars' per meeting and a fan would go in confidence knowing they 'should' be there..
It would also mean the Promoters sharing costs and working together for the common good..
Having an 'odd superstar' here and there wont collectively make much difference crowd wise as the season progresses i would think, but maybe seven collectively would?
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For me three things need to change massively if you want to keep 'team speedway'
One. Credibility - You need an emotional attachment to 'your team'. When your own riders can assist your opponents to be more successful than your own team it simply doesn't engender any emotional attachment. eg Why spend all season following a team who ultimately don't reach the play offs because their best rider went out and won matches for opponents who did? Can't take that seriously. .
Two. Marketing - Some people will say that lowering standards will lower attendances even further. Some will say we should just go it alone without GP stars as crowds are down to die hards now so won't drop significantly from the current position. The truth is bringing back GP riders will only bring back those who are aware of Speedway and used to go. Nikki P for example at Sheffield may put 500 on the gate in his first match. A huge increase for Sheffield but in reality a small actual number of fans. Fans, in the main, who used to go from Sheffield and stopped or/and fans from other 'local' clubs...
Will that increase be sustained? Not a chance if it follows the usual 'novelty pattern' of 'top stars' returning which sees crowds drop back as the weeks go by..
The sport seems to spend hundreds and hundreds of thousands on riders who have zero impact to crowd levels as the vast majority of people living locally haven't a clue who they are, yet (it appears) hardly a penny is spent on a professional marketing company which could tangibly increase crowds through its output. Invest in this marketing to see if it works..
And Three - Race Nights. The sport has to take place on nights (or afternoons) that you can get most fans in. All business is defined by how many customers it has and any business which only opens when it's employees tell you they are available, so you end up with irregular opening times, is doomed to failure. For many, Speedway is 'entertainment first', so run it when most of your local population can attend. Get the opening hours right as a priority then decide on everything else after that as it doesn't matter what level of Speedway you put on if your opening times are barriers to your potential customers..
In short..
Make it credible so its worth fans actually investing their emotional loyalty into it.
Invest in marketing to raise the profile of the sport and increase the awareness of non Speedway followers, as ultimately no matter what standard of rider or level you run at will make a difference if hardly anyone knows you exist.
And finally, open your doors based on your knowledge of when your largest potential customer volume can get there and not when your employees' personal agenda allows you to do..
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2 hours ago, Diamondboy said:PVC Basque or picture?
I presume the person concerned was seeking out the best deals on double glazing somewhere in northern Spain?
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58 minutes ago, Falcon1983 said:Maybe they should do a coupon so £18 to attend the first meeting, £16 for the second, £14 and then £12.
Discount only works if you have been to meeting one it would mean ppl have to go each time
So meeting one £18
Two £16
Three £14
Four £12
Five £12
Six £12
Seven £12
And so on...
If you miss the sequence you restart but if you're savvy you buy a friend a ticket
I'd also raffle off a few 'season tickets' too..
Say a fiver a ticket at the first three or four matches..
Just 250 sold per meeting would bring five grand in over four matches. .
Not a bad return for four season tickets..
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1 hour ago, Sidney the robin said:Could supporters afford say two home meetings in every ten days Mike ?? would UK clubs consider that.
I think the riders would need as much racing as is possible given they would have budgeted for 60 to 70 meetings or so if doubling up I would suggest..
And the landlords too would want as much as possible I would think so maybe reduced rent could be applied given most keep the bar and car park takes..?
Maybe running six times a month or so at £10 to £12 a night would be more beneficial than running once every other week at £18...?
Fixed race nights will be off the agenda globally I would think given the race to get as much Speedway in as they can. With Mon and Thu still being the TV nights over here, but 'any other' night where they can get a decent crowd being targeted.
The Aces for example would get around 1800 or so quite comfortably I reckon at around £12 on a Saturday night if they ran a Monday, Saturday, Thursday pattern.
At a reduced admission though for all three as at £18 a night it wouldn't happen..
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British Speedway to be reborn?
in Speedway News and Discussions
Posted · Edited by mikebv
Are these lighter nights keeping you up a bit later than usual..?
Sorry..
Later
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