E I Addio

Really ? Do you have any idea how many riders in Poland are owed money last season or how many clubs in both countries have serious financial problems ?

In fairness to Lewis I don't think any body could say he his a disruptive team member (Certainly not with Lakeside, I can't speak for Eastbourne), and I don't think anybody could say he is a dangerous rider. I can't remember him being excluded for dangerous riding and I can't remember him even being excluded for being the primary cause of a stoppage, except when his primary chain broke although if he has been it must be very rare. Similarly I doubt whether anyone can remember many (or any) occasions when he has been excluded for tapes infringements. I doubt if anyone can remember him deliberately staying down to get a race stopped. I can remember a couple of occasions when he came to Lakeside with Eastbourne and made big efforts to get his bike off the track after falls. Last season he established himself as a very capable and unselfish team rider. So if you look at Lewis purely from the point of view of his on track activities he comes out rather better than a number of others including some GP riders and including at least one in Team GB rider. So al in all Lewis is not an angel, but as purely an entertainer of the public he does his job as well as the next man and better than a lot.

I understand the point you make which was fair enough back in the days of straight win or lose when a team only had to win get 7points up in real terms on the final scoresheet in order to defeat 2 successful tacticals but now we have a scoring system which to my mind is excellent in giving a gallant loser something from the match. You haven't commented on that aspect but surely giving two bites of the cherry as we now do (through tacticals and league points) is giving a failing team too much ? And does an 8-1 really galvanise a team more than a 5-1 ? If a team is 10 points down and get a 5-1 they only have to share the remaining heats to get something out of the match. If that doesn't galvanise them they don't deserve anything IMO. Above all having t/r's in a two leg match really does seem to be a ridiculous extreme to me, and surely reduces it to a lottery?

No because once you own the stadium your costs of upkeep stay fairly constant whether you run one two or three meetings per week. If you rent your costs increase proportionately for every meeting you run, which is ok if you get enough through the gate to make each meeting pay but history shows that NL meetings rarely get big enough crowds to cover the costs of rented stadiums when shared with EL matches.

It's one thing to keep a meeting alive, but a totally different and a rather unattractive proposition to hand an undeserving team league points. To my mind any possible merit the tactical ride may have once had is negated by the introduction of the present system of league points. In the example you give the T/R rule would have made no difference to the quality of the racing. You do not state the final score but it is clear that even without the T/R rule Glasgow would have taken at least a league point from it which is fair reward for putting up a decent fight and Sheffield get two points for a deserved win but a "must do better" lecture from the TM for not getting all 3 points. For a team to get a 3 league points getting a 7-point win is a reasonable ask but be sure of overcoming two T/R's means they have to achieve what is in real terms a13-point advantage to win by 7 on the score sheet and get all 3 league points. The worst aspect of the t/r rule IMO is that it favours top heavy teams. A good solid strength in depth team is probably going to stay in striking distance and have limited chances of a t/r but a team with a strong top two and a weaker tail can get two successful t/r rides then be able to come on strong in heats13 and 15. For that reason especially I don't think you can ever have a fairly balanced league competition while you have a rule that favours one team against another I understand what you say as a neutral but the fact is that it is the week-in, week-out regulars that keep a club afloat and from that perspective I think there is nothing more demoralising than seeing your team win on the track but lose under the t/r rule. I can see the merit in making the t/r go off 15 metres to add an element of risk in the tactic,

I know about F1 but its got nothing to do with what immediately went before and orions question which is still not answered.

Give up before you make yourself look more stupid. 3 is still not worth more than 8.

Nobody is defending the promoters, merely suggesting you get a few facts straight. The real boom years were in the immediate post war period for just a few years before crowds were driven away by the crippling cost of the governments entertainment tax (passed on to admission charges) and the growth of television.By the end of the 1950's the sport had all but ceased to exist and was only saved by the founding on the cut price Provincial League, which of necessity was in rented stadiums. Whist a few clubs may have been comfortable speedway in general existed on a shoestring from that point on. If you read Len Silvers book he has always led a pretty much hand to mouth existence as a promoter, often subsidising the sport from his outside interests, especially in recent years. Over the last 50 years the promoters have been collectively responsible for many things but being awash with money is not one of them. As usual you again peddle the untrue line about people believing there is nothing wrong with speedway. Those of us that still go (which doesn't include yourself, as you never tire of telling us) are fully aware of the problems because we are confronted with them all the time. The last thing we need is those like yourself, who no longer have time for the sport doing your best to put the boot in and belittling those who still enjoy it by twisting the facts of speedway history instead of bothering with constructive discussion.

Read my post carefully and you will see I was not talking about you, I was talking about the poster you were commenting on i.e the one that commented on the state of the stadiums.. You raised question, I was answering that, not criticising you at all.

He blames the promoters for the state of the stadiums because, as a chronic complainer who hasn't been to a meeting in years, he always posts the first thing that comes into his head, rather than to take the time to put forward constructive criticism,.

Edinburgh have someone with a good potential in Sedgie. He was badly treated at Redcar but performed well at Lakeside, where on one occasion he came from the back to pass and beat Freddie Lindgren no less, so he has the ability but just needs to keep hid confidence going.. A really nice bloke and I am sure the fans will love him. Well done to the Edinburgh promotion in getting him in.

Very true. And in addition to Lewis Bridger they'll also have Peter Karlsson.

Quite.... ...and nothing to do with unemployment benefits either ! !

Poole said sometime ago that Davey would not be riding for them in 2014. My understanding is that the "no approach "agreement also extends to riders who rode for a particular team in 2013 as non assets, so if for example Cook wanted PK and Davey he had until 15th December to get a deal sorted before others could approach them. He has certainly had his share of problems in Poland, including not getting paid.

I totally agree and I know many others that do. The one thing that could be said in favour of the tac/sub in its day is that at least the fans got to see an on-form rider out in place of s struggling rider (usually) and the tac/ride doesn't even do that but times have changed , the world has moved on and its time to consign all the tacticals to history.

Has the rule of attacking the post not the poster been abolished, or is that another ban I see on the horizon ?

When did you ever get a different response from non-speedway fans in a pub ? Maybe in the late 40's early 50's but not in my lifetime. Mention football to non-football fans in a pub (e.g. me) and you get "22 overpaid prima donnas kicking a bag of wind about and behaving like kids" Mention cricket to non cricket fans and you get "Boring game" and so it goes on with non- fans of golf, boxing, stock-cars etc, The thing that's different about speedway is not the reaction of the non-fans its the number of so-called fans that can't wait to slag the sport off for imaginary reasons. Like the OP of this thread for example.

So, as expected its PK and Davey. In fairness it has been those two that have gone out and pulled our chestnuts out of the fire in heat 15 on numerous occasions when others had not done there job and wrapped the match up earlier. They are good blokes an essentially younger team but I can't help feeling the line-up lacks a bit of sparkle. The proof of the pudding is in the eating of course but it does look a bit like another season of always the bridesmaid never the bride unless Lewis pulls out something very special and ups his game quite lot. Pity Swiderski had to go . Super bloke.

Do you imagine that blown motors don't occur in NL or PL matches ? The other side of your argument is that if a motor is blown in a NL/PL match the extra income from the EL will be very handy in replacing it. Add to that the experience gained on set-ups, etc from riding in the EL is likely to have a beneficial knock-on effect in the points scored (and therefore money earned) in the lower leagues..

I think most of us feel like that. Nobody could fault Davey on the way he rode in 2012 and if we had more of the same most people would be well pleased. Davey had a number of problems last season and not getting paid in Poland didn't help. Like a lot of the Aussies he starts throwing his toys around sometimes if things are not working out but if you are building s team to include a 7+ rider I can't think of anyone of those available that would necessarily be any better. I also think the Poole thing is a bit over-rated when you look at the way he bothers with younger riders. You won't find many EL captains that bother half as much as Davey has done. Whether the whole team has been built with the right balance though, is a different matter. Big season needed from Lewis.

Never was on the side of promoting NL riders as such, but given the state of British speedway, if that is the price we have to pay for 36 league meetings a season a instead of 28 then we have to get behind the idea and run with it. Its the only show in town. At least I'll be there every meeting to see how it works out in practice before passing judgment, unlike the moaning minnies who tell us its doomed to fail before a wheel is turned. As for Jon Cook he has, unlike other promoters, at least bothered to go out and organise a fans forum for his club within a week after the AGM finishing to explain the new formats and answer anything else the fans wanted to ask.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhElCQLpCPo

I I creased up at that one. Poor old Sidney. Walks straight into them every time

... maybe they don't like the often unjustified criticism (and abuse) from people who proudly proclaim they haven't been for years, but will only post when they see the opportunity to put the boot in. Sometimes I don't know whether .to laugh or cry, there are so many genuine problems with the sport that are worthy of intelligent discussion yet so many posts are on the lines of "Whoa yeah gor blimey mate I fink the promoters are a bunch of idiots........" then go off on some incorrect tangent about some rule they think exists but doesn't or that Golden era when only Englishmen won the world final. The T/R ,Tac sub is classic example. SCB and Bwitcher have explained in the clearest possible terms, that even I can understand why the Tac Sub rule was even more unfair than the T/r rule but still we get people banging on about tac subs, and of course we get thread after thread like this one where mythical friends or blokes in the office are collapsing with laughter because of guest riders or something. That fact is that there are maybe a dozen or so posters that are really on the ball with different aspects of the sport and come up with some really constructive criticisms or realistic suggestions which make for interesting debate, whether you agree with them or not but many more only seem intent on chipping away at our favourite port with nonsense like this thread.

Let's try to concentrate on the topic under discussion.. The OP is not about ""speedway fans" and it is not about whether idiosyncrasies within the sport appear to be increasing. It is specifically about whether riders riding in different leagues reduce the sport to ridicule in the eyes of those on the outside. That is not a difficult concept for the average person to grasp. What fans within the sport think about other idiosyncrasies is irrelevant to this discussion.