spook

I finally caught up with the match this morning & this nonsense does speedway no good at all The glaring issues for me were that Havelock was promised a track inspection & then it didnt happen..... what reason could there possibly be for that which is upstanding, impartial & within the spirit of the sport for the riders, clubs & fans? It seemed to me that there was a big difference in the state of the track between heats 8 & 9 & that it most certainly needed a track inspection...... what I think I saw from that point was a desperate need to reach heat 10 and then cancel the rest of the match. There certainly was no question of if there would be any more races once ht10 was over... why was that?? Reaching Heat 10 is not just about league tables and averages, it is also about the hard cash that fans are paying. So for teams and officials to be approaching the final two heats with one aim no matter how bad the conditions are is an insult to the fans who will only vote with their feet in the future Mickey Mouse

and i'll say it again .... BSI need to hold their end of the bargain up................ they are responsible for deciding who holds what rounds & they are responsible for the promotional work......... they have a deal with the fans... & rather than trying to pass the buck via their legal team they should be ensuring that the fans are not left holding the bill

it isnt only crashes that show there is an issue..what happened to Nicki in ht10 was perhaps the best example... we cannot have riders being flung to the fence off the start because of the track........ maybe hunt down some posts from a few of us going through the specific issues that happened..... all 4 bends had been rutting since heat 6 the track needed work on it and like SCB said the other night, if so much time hadnt been spent mucking around with the tapes and having rider briefings they would have had that time to work on the track....... just like they have in the past when they have pushed through meetings

I'm not going to teach anyone to suck eggs on this subject but I DO think that it can be more of 'an exact science' I was always critical of Ole's track prep for who his surfaces were suiting .... that combined with some of the grading antics he was orchestrating during meetings left me in no two minds that he couldnt be trusted in the race director position..................... On the whole with the track curating I think he has been a fairly safe pair of hands though.............. i'd like it to be pushed on though, and especially if he is now going to operate as a commercial company and presumably pick up $'s it seems there would be several factors that should be considered and measured in relation to each other............ temperature, moisure, type of shale, base, humidity, storage to name a few ........... speedway does not have the money of football or golf or many other sports....... but it does KNOW that if the surface is no good then it is hamstrung and that means it HAS to nail it with no exceptions

nonsense .... there is no sign of Holder having issues in ht10 and the viciousness of the grip he picked up left him no chance................. Batch in ht12 i'll agree with as he seemed unable to control what looked normally controllable and during that race he appeared to be struggling with his cornering......it cant be denied that he hit the same rut as Nicki though did you also miss Nicki's issue in ht10 Orion? I cant understand the logic in that over a straight refund other than they are betting on x thousand people not coming back next year...... sounds unlawful to me and if challenged I suspect they would be required to give back hard cash......... I guess at this stage it is something though

to be fair Phil Rising has long defended Ole Olsen on this forum against many of us who had the knives out.... and he isn't British From where I sit the issue usually appears to be the friendships which are made rather than a non compromising impartial position ............ but that could be said for a lot of the speedway community Thx Norbold that is interesting............... my cousin experienced this to his cost after he sank a fortune in a club in California (look before you leap!) ........ clearly he must have been going for one of the first three options as the sticking point when acts got in touch was always how many fans were they going to bring with them .......... never an issue when Santana came to town but many other desperate nights!

good post TMC and hopefully looking forward this will have given everyone a jolt, and a reminder of what their roles are............ on the night everyone messed up and the riders took it upon themselves to carry out the final calamity Steve Brandon was talking to Nigel & Kelvin in the hour after heat 12 ..... but had nothing to report on the riders' meeting.... nothing was coming out The treatment of the media.... and by extension all of the fans who werent in the stadium was a disgrace..... it would have been a disgrace in the 70's.... let alone now......................... if the riders want to play hardball then there should have been a statement made by one of them................ if the Jury want to rubber stamp the decision then a statement should have been made by them ............... if BSI/PZM want fans to feel valued then a statement should have been made............................I still cannot believe that fans had to endure what was an extremely painful 12 heats over two hours...... followed by another hour's wait with no update..... and then no statement...no interview............................. put simply it is just suicide for a sport in this day and age edit: and as for the fans in the stadium who simply put are being robbed by the chain of events .... I wouldnt be suprised if a large portion of them never trust the GP's enough again to go to one I disagree about the coverage to follow............... i'd like it to be warts and all, turning over every stone with full disclosure as the secrets, lies and back scratching in speedway is part of its problem............ lets have it all out and then move on and if the riders want to change the margins involved in 'rider safety'.... then it is clear to me that it will end up in changes to the bikes

I do have an issue in people saying 'that the track was perfectly adequate' or 'perfectly rideable' ....... watch ht10 please and tell me it was 'perfectly' anything .............. The riders should have been going back out there and had no grounds to down tools for the night.... but they did have a case for grumble....and there was a case that the track needed attention

I hadnt even considered the time taken to dismantle........ based on that Wembley price your estimation probably isnt far off ........ for it to be protected as the only GB GP for all these years I cannot imagine BSI are giving the Millenium Stadium the lion's share

well yes ive bought and sold a few items and understand the concept ..... but ive also had to provide some service and in some instances bend over backwards to bring the trade in...... transactions are a two way thing......... are we thinking that BSI are paying the guys who own the Millenium Stadium full rates for each of the days leading up to the GP? I suspect if they were they wouldnt be making much... if at all anything.... even with a couple of free days before For example if Bruce Springsteen played the Millenium Stadium....... using crude percentages how much do we think the owners are getting from the event? I would be suprised if they werent getting 20%...... start giving them money for 7 days leading up to it and you wont have any left for yourself and the line of mine that you didnt quote is of course the alternative for if they are unable to negotiate longer terms with a stadium that they would like to stage a GP in........ keep looking and meanwhile pushing forward with the science of it, with the intention of reducing the time the track building takes I hope they are confident that they will be able to successfully replace him if that is the intention. The last thing they need is to bring someone in who cannot get it right

and what is the cost of living in Poland? For them to fill the stadium they dont want to be charging the locals what would amount to £100 here

It depends on how you view it........... if the owners are interested in speedway holding events in their stadium then it is in their interest to open the doors as early as they can ................. and it's up to the promoters to get that across to them and if it isnt possible? then either Speedway needs to scientifically learn new ways or the promoters move on until they find a stadium where they can have a week before

What ludicrous reaction are you talking about in particular? I think it is fair to say that the signs are there already that the real details are being buried and politically/legally handled as well as the relevant people can.

gotcha...... well if found 'responsible' for the mess I think they could count themselves quite lucky if that was all they were to lose ...... that Jury decision line will be the line used for all of them now apart from PZM & the FIM

I beg to differ........... the SGP website promotes the championship whether the GP's are being organised by BSI or not........... they work with the media and are the focal point for any news releases, information. It is most certainly their responsibility to relay to the fans what the situation is with the tickets.................................whether PZM are due to carry the burden of the refund is a different matter entirely and clearly this is the reason why they immediately went on the front foot with speed sport and BSI Yes completely unacceptable.... but I think the ship has sailed where the riders will be held responsible now that the official party line of 'We respect the FIM Jury decision to call the result after heat 12 due to the track conditions' has been trundled out............ unless of course the FIM start fighting their corner.....

BSI are the license holders and clearly have a major promotional role whether it is a GP they are organising or not. Once again we are entering territory where it is more about their legal team than holding up their end of the bargain with the fans.

I get their statement and what they are trying to remind us of.................. but whether they like it or not the restaged Ullevi & Gelsenkirchen should be seen as failures which cost fans a lot of money that they never saw again...... so in fact that is now 4 out of 51 nights on a temporary track which have been disasters (7.84%) They try to assure us with the care that is taken but I have serious reservations about what should be a continuing scientific approach edit: and once again they fail to mention to the fans what is the situation with refunds for Saturday

The starts are definitely a large part of it...... but you cannot deny that the track was starting to become an issue........... watch heat 10 in particular & pay careful attention to Nicki's wheels going into bend one off the start....... and then Chris Holder lap 3 bends 1 & 2 ............ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MzA4LclvvIE&t=115m50s this was the fourth time in 3 heats bend one was showing it was an issue......... ruts causing issues like this off the start can not be ignored ...... and clearly what happened to Holder was fairly savage....................and then 2 heats later in heat 12 it was going to cause an issue for Batch which would see him end up on the deck (whether he should have saved it or not)

patience Daniel san right ..... so ive watched the first two hours again.... what a mug eh? It was worth it though as I noticed a lot that I didnt first time around. Not sure how to say what I saw other than a list of observations I count 5 of the 12 races had passing in ...ht2, 5, 9, 11 & 12 ..... one of those had 2 passes ...... 2 of the passes were due to riders hitting ruts (nothing strange there on a temp track but starting a little earlier than normal) The riders who showed visibly that they were cheesed off were: Magic, Zagar, Holder (multiple times), Doyle, NickiP, Greg..................... alternately Bomber, Hampel & MJJ seemed quite chipper I'm not so critical of what we saw of Phil Morris this time around.... he was working his backside off with the riders over the green light start issue............. what he should never have done is followed NickiP off the track & this followed by Doyle's subsequent exclusion could well be seen as a significant moment in the riders knowing they could get above their station Not all the riders stayed still on green light... Magic was creeping in ht7 Spidercam is freakin awesome! There was a rider briefing after ht4 (wasnt made all that obvious) Jim Lawrence's performance hadnt improved 2nd time around Rutting started in Ht6 ..... the restarts saw the start of the 3rd bend rutting Ht7 saw rutting in the first bend entry with Greg suffering Ht8 1st bend entry shows itself again Ht9 exit of 4 is rutting Ht10 Pedersen finds terrible rut in 1st bend from the start & it kills his race.............. Holder finds bad rut between 1&2 and he loses it (I saw no sign of it being due to a lack of confidence...... he seemed on it in this race) Ht11 Gollob & THJ are clearly avoiding the inside on entries Ht12 Magic hits rut exiting 4................. Batch hits rut on 1 and loses it (this did look like his wrist wasnt strong enough to control it though) I'm pretty much of the same opinion BWitcher........... The track at that point was still rideable but it had issues and the writing was on the wall....... the track needed some attention (did they have time?) and the riders just had to get the job done.............. the tapes issue had clearly taken its toll on them (and who knows the effect of Friday on top) and someone(s) seemingly did a very good job whipping up support in the riders' meeting.............. you are right they should hang their heads in disgrace...... edit: but so should the ref, the race director, the jury, speed sport, & BSI...... did I miss anyone?! btw much better link for the GP here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MzA4LclvvIE

*checks to see how many points KK scored*

what you are talking about there Midland Red is unbeatable rider power most of us arent stupid........ we have memory banks of umpteen matches meetings and races and in most instances could provide an opinion on conditions......................... then some of us have also been riders ............ and some have also been officials........................ the suggestion that only the 18 riders on the night should have an opinion on whether the track was dangerous is over the top................. should they have an opinion? yes of course very much so and the officials should carefully listen and consider............... should whatever the riders say goes? no that would be ludicrous

but were they involved in the riders' meeting? and on the same topic... were the meeting reserves? i'm hoping this is ironic

yes and that is the point I was making..... it wasnt about a lack of apology.. it was the way it was made in the end after such a delay ....and with no official word in between. I'm pleased you fished this particular line out of the statement Skidder1 because I believe it was the core of it and the most important part for BSI I dont believe the emphasis is on the 'understanding' part of that line...... but more on 'the FIM Jury's decision to declare the meeting'

So what is usually the small print for Polish meetings? In a country where the fans are known for rioting I would have thought that their 'fair' wouldnt be too disimilar to ours .... if not more favourable to the fan?

hey FSP ...... so that covers their 'right' to cancel ....... but it doesnt cover terms of refunds I read your post just fine Humphrey....... it seemed to be quite full of the usual agenda an apology is not meaningless.... an apology by its very nature is a statement of intent.......... in a situation like this it is the natural opening statement in what is a one way conversation with the viewers/readers...... the fans in the stadium and the fans at home were left in the dark and had been cheated out of normal service.... this is not a situation to stay quiet, consult the lawyers and offer hollow regrets a couple of days later I am certain that there could be a related discussion here somewhere for you Humphrey, as to whether BSI should still be the license holder or not, but this wasnt what I was talking about