Under 15's Scunthorpe

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Quote (wildcat steve) If he did have a 350 why was it not picked up in scrutineering????

 

 

Steve can you tell the difference by looking at an engine on a stand which is 350 and which is a 500 with out taking the head off? You can not blame a scrutineer for this. The parents should be upfront with the Peter Oaks.

 

My understandings were that riders who wished to be part of the championship and did not hold a 500 licence was assessed at Buxton on there ability to control a motor cycle. The riders on the 350's were given up grates to enable them to compete in the championship on 500 bikes.

 

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Quote (morganbike) I know from my son Daniel's experience that at 12 years old he can lap faster on a 350 than a 500.The 350 wont lift as easily at the start and dirt will drag the motor down sufficiently to drive out of corners and not spin !.

I may be wrong but these are my observations and not the gospel

 

Phil, a rider on a 350 then has an unfair advantage over other riders, who are attempting to tame 500cc bikes on slick, wet tracks. I would prefer 500 on a gripy track. The likely hood of making the start is better on a 350 (unfair), but the problem is in the turns, it’s not good when a rider in front straight lines the corner in stead of sliding and is highly dangerous to other riders.

 

Speedway regulations 19.4.1

 

In the event of any competitive racing. Competitors must only take to the track in accordance with their registration and using the same class of machinery.

 

This is a U/15 500cc championship, therefore people should be upfront and not enter unless on a 500 engine.

 

If riders are on 350's they should be open with Peter, because the insurance cover will be void. Unless Clownes will agree to special compensation to contract.

 

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I think the U/15 championship has been a fantastic progression for British Speedway and for the future of our sport. However the future goals will only happen, if these kids (11-15 years olds) are developed correctly and given correct guidance.

 

Many accidents during the championship have been down to Parents setting bikes up for the riders incorrectly, instead of looking at the bigger picture of rider development which is why the championship was started. Elite league settings are not suitable for most U/15 (we do have several exceptions at the older end Auty/Taylor etc.) A 500 engine set up to spin, enables a rider to learn throttle control, while learning race craft (passing using different lines etc.) Most accidents have been in the first turns were riders have been quick off the start, but have been unable to turn at the corners or the bike ignition as been to retarded to much creating to much drive or the use of to smaller sprockets for top end speed.

 

To be involved in the championship is great experience in many areas of rider development that is if the kid really wants it off course and not the parents. Bike preparation, organisation of paperwork, travelling planning/over night, signing on, scurtineering standards, and personal pressure of parades, performing in front of people, interviews and having the opportunity to compete against other riders of similar age on similar sized machines are all part of the bigger picture. These are all experiences, plus many more that the championship brings. The lads who moved up to the conference league this year have already progressed at a lot quicker rate than we normally see, because of the experience they gained in the U/15's last year.

 

 

The true spirit needs to be maintained and perhaps consideration should be given to dividing the championship into two sections 13-15 500cc bikes 10-12 350cc, both raced on the same day keeping the championship together.

 

In Sweden, Denmark and Australia U/15 championships are on 125, providing competitive low speed racing, while riders learn race craft. I seem to remember these countries have been producing world champions on a regular basis.

 

Paul

[Wildcat Steve 33]

Its nice to see the interest with the U15s

As to Kye Norton. I have spoken to Peter Oakes tonight and as far as he was aware all riders were on 500cc bikes

All riders have to ride 500cc bikes you cannot mix them.

Peter was of the same opinion as me that that if Kye was riding a 350 it should have been picked up when the bikes were examined before the meeting.

 

No one objected or brought it up during the meeting and this is all speculation.

As I have said I have spoken to Peter this evening so he is now aware of the situation.

 

 

Paul you say that the accidents were down to parents setting bikes incorrectly for the riders.?????

Look at the Gps how many falls do you see? its a championship like any other the lads are going for it. look at the photo in the Star all going for it giving no quater.

no complaints when they pick themselves up just racing

Setting the bikes any different than you normally would for a second half or practice on different tracks would be of no advantage to that lad. Many try to get second halves at these tracks before hand to get an idea of set ups. Riders have different styles, carbs, engines, etc what works for one does always work for another.

 

George knows what works for him and I am guided by what he wants. He will tell me what the bike is doing and what he wants it to do and I set it up to what he wants. ( Well Try )

 

As to the lads riding 500cc bikes all have to be assesed by TWO Instructors to have their licence upgraded.

Last year in the CL Sam Martin came over and held down a place in the CL when he went home he could not ride a 500 and could only ride a 125. Do you think this helped his progress? Both Mark and Sam would e-mail us before he came over last season frustrated that he could not ride a 500 like George

Yes the Danes, Sweads and Oz have produced great riders and will continue to do so.

What we are doing I feel is great because those who are ready can move up on ability not age.

What we are doing will produce great riders too i have no doubt. You can see the results in the CL already

 

I know most of the riders parents and I would say that there are no pushy parents.

Its something that all riders parents get labelled with. Most of the time its reining them back not pushing them. The lads want it all now

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All riders have to ride 500cc bikes you cannot mix them.

 

 

Steve, How could this be picked up before the meeting?

 

As to Kye Norton

 

I don’t have a problem with Kye and if this is the case I know his father sets the bike up to meet Kye's ability, which on Sunday was outstanding.

 

 

Paul you say that the accidents were down to parents setting bikes incorrectly for the riders.

 

This is fact Steve you cannot set up an inexperienced rider’s bike the same as experienced rider. On Sunday several riders were unable to slide the bikes round Scunthorpe making this very difficult for the all riders. The parents should have taken control and made the bikes easier to ride and slide and develop the skills. As stated there is a wide range of abilities in the championship.

 

 

As to the lads riding 500cc bikes all have to be assesed by TWO Instructors to have their licence upgraded

 

Agree with this although I still believe a minimum age should be introduced as any one under 13 is unable physically to hold on to a 500 cc when the going gets tough. I believe the direction we are moving is great, but I believe a 350 class for under 13 should be part of the set up, before we have some major injuries.

 

I know most of the rider’s parents and I would say that there are no pushy parents.

 

I cannot agree on this Steve, you do not have to look too closely around the pits to see this occurring. Parent’s ego outweighing the true support to one or two of the kids.

 

Regards Paul

[Vince 9,454]

This is fact Steve you cannot set up an inexperienced rider’s bike the same as experienced rider. On Sunday several riders were unable to slide the bikes round Scunthorpe making this very difficult for the all riders. The parents should have taken control and made the bikes easier to ride and slide and develop the skills.

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To be fair to the parents a great many of them are learning the job as much as their kids are. In my experience last year many of the parents just ran the engines the same way pretty much everywhere and even gearing was done on the advice of experienced riders so would sometimes be totally wrong for that rider. Several times I have seen parents lowering gearing to try and make the bike more rideable but in fact it has already been too low and the kids are getting into trouble because they are running out of revs. Many of the kids are also very inexperienced and therefore can't tell you what is wrong so it is pretty difficult all round for such young riders. In most cases this isn't down to parents deliberately setting bikes up wrong but just to a lack of knowledge. What I will say is that many of the parents would happily share information about how the bikes were set up although the kids were in competition.

I don't know about this year but last year was pretty low on the number of pushy parents - if you want to see just how pushy parents can be try going to a schoolboy motocross meeting!

[Guest Christophers Dad]

I don't know about this year but last year was pretty low on the number of pushy parents - if you want to see just how pushy parents can be try going to a schoolboy motocross meeting!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Vince we have them living by us,its all about who has the biggest Camper Van i mean and the Quad Bike to go with it . Edited July 9, 2005 by Christophers Dad

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Vince and Christopher’s Dad

 

Totally agree with your comments. The camaraderie during the year was topped of with the Newport meeting, with everyone mucking in and helping one another.

 

Paul

 

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Edited July 9, 2005 by TTRacing

[Vince 9,454]

We once had a bloke turn up at the MX practice track in an RS Racehome (£100,000 +) and then unload 4 small KTM's with all the best bits on (best part of £9000 I would guess) before coming over to sign in his 6 year old son. He then asked where would be the best place to take the boy and teach him to ride as it was his first time. He didn't seem to get my point when I asked him what happened if the boy didn't like riding bikes!

[Wildcat Steve 33]

Hi Paul,

 

The scrutineers should pick up the fact if a rider is on a 350 by the engine number.

George had a 350 and was always picked up at Swindon and Oxford when he used to ride.

 

Never thought you had a problem with Kye I also think he is an outstanding prospect very nice style was commenting on that when he was out with George in his last race.

 

I agree you cannot set a bike up for an inexperienced rider the same as an experienced rider.

When we turned up I had never seen the Scunthorpe track and set Georges bike up with a 61 back sprocket.

Walking the track before the pairs it was apparent that there was not a lot of dirt on the track and by the time the U15s got out there it would be slick.

I changed Georges sprocket to a 58 and backed his timing off to give him more drive and it worked for George. the track was graded and watered with little dirt it was very slick for the first few heats and this caused a few to fall in the opening heats ( I am not having a go the track or staff just saying how it was thought the track was great )

 

As to riders 13 and under not riding a 500 Junior riders can only step up to 500 with two insructors signing a letter.

from our experience George was on his 125 till he was flat out on it everywhere I then bought him his 350 brand new. He rode that for a whole winter and was attending Malc Holloways training schools. Malc said he was ready for a 500 try him on one and he took to it without any real problems at the age of 11.(His licence was signed by Steve Targett at Reading and endorsed by Peter Oakes at Swindon in the spring of 2003)

Malc rode Georges 350 and said dont know how they can ride these things and George said it was much easier on his 500. Looking back the 350 was a waste of time and money though the grass boys soon snapped up the engine and we bought a brill 500 engine from Adam Shields which has served us well.

I agree about set ups and Georges then was set up to spin and only now we looking at different set ups and engines.

Speedway will always have its danger element and the fact that we are half way through the second year of the U15s without any major injury the lads have shown great control and abilitiy to lay bikes down etc ( Like Brendan Johnson did )and it bears this out.

Yes this year there is a bigger gap between the the top 10 and the rest of the field but that has got to help the bottom end guys no one is being lapped.

 

Still dont see it the pushy parent bit have to agree with Vince it is a learning curve for parents too and all share info and help one and other.

I myself tried to help get Ben Taylors bike started when we were warming up and was helping Dave Johnson to change gearing between races and we have had help to in the past as well.

I like the atmosphere in the pits made many good friends over the last two U15s

Think we will have to beg to differ on this one

Edited July 11, 2005 by Wildcat Steve

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Hi Steve

 

The scrutineers should pick up the fact if a rider is on a 350 by the engine number.

George had a 350 and was always picked up at Swindon and Oxford when he used to ride.

 

I would suggest Steve this was a known engine to Swindon. It’s not uncommon for 500 to be sleeved down as low as 350 for young lads or experienced riders looking for more drive on renowned slick tracks.

 

In fact GM does not do a 350, but I am aware of several that are on the grasstracks. We also had a 125 TM which was sleeved down to 100 for a season.

 

Unfortunately numbers are accurate for only new motors straight from the factory. I would not expect a scurtineer to pick this up unless an engine was dismantled or the size being known from past owners.

 

I just feel you was a bit harsh an your expectations form the Scunthorpe scurtineer, who did pick up several safety issues during the pre-meeting inspection and like most staff at Scunthorpe are on a fast learning curve.

 

I don't normally get involved with the forum discussions, but I think this subject and the views expressed have lead to an enjoyable debate.

 

No matter what our individual thoughts are, it appears, we all have a common goal, the future development of British Speedway

 

 

Paul

[Wildcat Steve 33]

Sorry paul was not having a go at the scrutineers thought they did a fantastic job. The point i was trying to make was that Kye was on a 500 and they would have picked it up otherwise.

Like you say if a bike was sleeved you would not tell

The track and staff at Scunthorpe did a fantastic job and a great day was had by all. I have no probs with Scunthrope and we look foward to coming up again soon

Edited July 14, 2005 by Wildcat Steve

[morganbike 10]

Great thread,

Put one 350 and one 500 out on a 4 lapper and without judging the riders ability, a keen ear will pick up the 350 without any doubt.The sound is completely different.

The expence involved in producing a 350 that looks like a 500 ie engine numbers,barrel,head etc is too great an expence to endure as they are achieving nothing even for those who run on an unlimited budget.

The way to spot a 350 is on the number of fins on the pot.It has one less than a 500 to achieve the stroke and there is no way a 500 can become a 350 without reducing the stroke.You cannot achieve 350cc on a 500 pot just by reducing the bore because the piston's diameter would be rediculous and would lead to a sleeved down carb to make it rev if at all, and would eliminate a sound that eminates a duck with constipation !. So you have to reduce the length of the con rod. Scrutineers need not be afraid.A crankase marked with the traditional 880 signifies a 350 but these cases can be used with a 500 crank,pot,piston and head to make a 500.The 350/500 cases are the same.The same goes for a long stroke jawa 500 marked with 884 which can be turned into a 889 short stroke but they dont change the numbers.

A classic was when on E-Bay a guy had a 500 short stroke for sale.So I rang him for the engine numbers which he gave me and I then rang Bellham to confirm it's originality.It turned out to be a 1998 long stroke 884 but was told on E-Bay that it's a 2003 short stroke !.This was the year it was transformed so be aware.

Glen Taylor (GT Tuning) can graft a 350 jawa top end onto a GM botom end and it will run.How would a scrutineer deal with that ?.Here in the Youth Grasstrack world no-one cares about cheating as the top 5 to 10 riders in each class will achieve their ambitions and the ACU cannot police this each meet.Some say youth grasstrack is the stepping stone to speedway.Some will do one or the other or both when their budget allows.If I went out tommorow and bought a brand new two stroke YAMAHA 125cc engine,I could have it turned into a 164cc for around £500.The rules allow 150cc but would this oversize engine be competative with the new breed of 250 four strokes that are now allowed in the class ? Todays Tuners/Engine Builders have a vast number of areas to play in so don't worry about undersised motors taking advantage as when the pilot gets to 16/17 yrs old the ability will come through.I feel that the under 15's is getting a bit too serious and whilst we hope and wish our kids will one day make it in the speedway world they do deserve the oportunity of a good education and freedom of choice.

Phil

Edited July 14, 2005 by morganbike