Sean 3 Posted November 19, 2003 i am presuming..although nothing was said in the Press release....that the Britsh League cup has been scrapped! well i suppose something good has come from three days in the sunshine! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GM 26 Posted November 19, 2003 Yes if its not broke and it was not doing to bad don't try and fix it. To me they only needed to stop the crazy doubleing up down rule the way it was. Then just enforce the rules they already have. This agm has turned the sport on its head so much so that the hard core fans are finding it very hard to accept going by all the posts all over the net. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JayEmm 0 Posted November 20, 2003 Change is not always bad, infact it's often good. Look at the impact of the 20/20 cup in Cricket - the purists hated it but it's done the sport the world of good. I am reserving judgement till I know what the rule changes mean rather than reacting to the headline news. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Steve Shovlar 10,439 Posted November 20, 2003 What an excellent AGM! Some great decisions have been made and I can't wait for the start of the new season! I have always been a fan of the grading system and am more than pleased it is finally coming into the sport. Much fairer, simpler and easier to work than the dreaded points limit. Also fantastic news is no guests! Best thing to happen in years! The sport will always be ridiculed whilst we have the fiasco's of one rider working for two clubs at the same time. looks like that one has finally been sorted and that can only be good news. Now onto the no tac sub rule. Interesting this one. Tac subs have been with the sport for as long as I can remember, and I am suprised that this rule has ben brought in. Whether it will work or not we will have to see, but I can certainly see the benefits of the new rule for armchair fans. it certainly simplifies things. I was talking to Middlo tonight at the Poole meeting, and the way we read is that if a team is 8 points down, the team manager can nominate a rider who is in the race already, and his points will count as double. So that means no rider will miss out and only get three rides. All riders will get four, and two will get the extra outing in heat 15. You can only use this facility twice, plus of course the golden double off 15 metres, providing he has not been used as a tac from the line already. Thirty six meetings to squeeze in should make an excellent and lively season. Looks like Arena are racing on Wednesday nights, Coventry Thursday with Swindon and Ipswich. I have read through the comments so far this evening and its the usual moans and groans after an AGM. Personally I say its nowhere near as bad as the picture many of you are painting. The riders get 4 rides guarenteed, (so no dodgy 3 pointers in the team) and the best two are still out for 5 rides. Good stuff! PS Davey watt has signed for Poole next year, it was announced tonight. So no Watt at Kings Lynn next year. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
arnieg 3,637 Posted November 20, 2003 Overall it doesn't look too bad to me. I don't think there will be much distress over the loss of the British League Cup Doubling Down was ludicrous and had to go Restrictions on doubling up seem reasonable as does the addition of PL riders as 'squad members' Guests were completely out of hand last year and I think that a cut back was badly needed. But have they tightened up too much (it wouldn't be the first time the promoters have over-reacted). I see a flood of special dispensations being granted (which brings us back to the problem of the lack of an independent management body) Golden Doubles - don't like them, but on the grounds that we've already got them I don't mind the no change. But Golden Tac Subs - adds nothing - it just changes the basis on which tac subs are used. I doubt there is a shred of evidence that GTS made matches closer than traditional tac subs. One plus is that it does guarantee more rides for tail end riders because they won't get taken out Retention of points limit - good for the PL. Not clear what it has been set at for Elite League, but with two new teams it probably needs to be about 42 otherwise there won't be enough riders available to allow Arena & Swindon to build decent teams. As already pointed out imposing another condition via grading can only be a restriction in the room for manouvre so calling it more flexibility is positively orwellian. Removal of bonus points - about time too. It has been tried before (NL in the early eighties) and the big advantage is that it more closely reflects the one thing that is the truest marker of team strengths - how many points they score in a match. However the press release is not very clear and I fear that grading (based on averages) has replaced a points limit in the Elite League - if so ... BAD MOVE I'm sure that much of this will all look very different in a week's time as more detail emerges. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hilly 170 Posted November 20, 2003 It says no tac subs,but what about reserve replacments Not sure about the grading system,definately need some more information on this one. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dekker 239 Posted November 20, 2003 What an excellent AGM! Some great decisions have been made and I can't wait for the start of the new season! I have always been a fan of the grading system and am more than pleased it is finally coming into the sport. Much fairer, simpler and easier to work than the dreaded points limit. Also fantastic news is no guests! Best thing to happen in years! The sport will always be ridiculed whilst we have the fiasco's of one rider working for two clubs at the same time. looks like that one has finally been sorted and that can only be good news. Now onto the no tac sub rule. Interesting this one. Tac subs have been with the sport for as long as I can remember, and I am suprised that this rule has ben brought in. Whether it will work or not we will have to see, but I can certainly see the benefits of the new rule for armchair fans. it certainly simplifies things. I was talking to Middlo tonight at the Poole meeting, and the way we read is that if a team is 8 points down, the team manager can nominate a rider who is in the race already, and his points will count as double. So that means no rider will miss out and only get three rides. All riders will get four, and two will get the extra outing in heat 15. You can only use this facility twice, plus of course the golden double off 15 metres, providing he has not been used as a tac from the line already. Thirty six meetings to squeeze in should make an excellent and lively season. Looks like Arena are racing on Wednesday nights, Coventry Thursday with Swindon and Ipswich. I have read through the comments so far this evening and its the usual moans and groans after an AGM. Personally I say its nowhere near as bad as the picture many of you are painting. The riders get 4 rides guarenteed, (so no dodgy 3 pointers in the team) and the best two are still out for 5 rides. Good stuff! PS Davey watt has signed for Poole next year, it was announced tonight. So no Watt at Kings Lynn next year. He He stevie boy, nice stir, The grading system is in all likelyhood here for 1 year only to prevent a reoccurance of the the one big league fiasco where some teams had no real heatleaders., so dont get too attached to it, The guests rule in principle looks good, but i pity teams that lose a their 2nd and 3rd heatleaders only to be replaced by PL riders, some real gubbings to be seen then. Or will special dispensation be seen? Can see this rule being revised once the sangria has cleared from the brains. The tac sub rule makes me laugh, again protecting poor riders and will squash the averages up even more than before. Tbh if the el wanted to save money they might as well ahve gone to 6 man teams, that had more credibity than this. Overall once the fine detail filters out we can get a clearer picture, but i cant help feeling another rules meeting will be held in Jan/Feb once ppl get thinking of the implications of some of these changes. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DW 11 Posted November 20, 2003 The no Bpts was used successfully in the NL in 1989-1990 and didn't result in any average fiddling .The one guest rule has been used before in the lower league and again worked reasonably well , the only problem will be if you have all three heat leaders injured. It will pay to have a strong top 3 next season,you can cover better with R/R and the golden double.Can't see too many teams using untried youngsters though,you don't want to have a long tail especially away,unless you have a super reserve partner. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
martin palmer 0 Posted November 20, 2003 I am with Steve Shovelar here. I do not think it was a bad AGM, and in fact, some good decisions were taken. 10 Team in the EL...Brilliant, and if rider Grading has helped secure that, by freeing up some top Boys for Swindon and Arena, then Brilliant. Its a price worth paying for all EL Clubs. Doing away with doubling down, and doubling up ( in most cases) excellent, but I applaud the start of a Squad system by allowing all EL clubs to sign some young PL Guys on a double up basis. Bit confused by the new Joker system, but for many Non Speedway people, or casual Fans, they understand the Joker scenario far mor readily that a Tac Sub. Its also better for the reserves and second strings, means they have more rides. All in all, not bad. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Joanne 0 Posted November 20, 2003 Don't like this tac sub business at all Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shazzybird 10 Posted November 20, 2003 To be perfectly honest I have never understand any of the rules in any sport (apart from the offside football rule!) As long as I get an entertaining speedway meeting, with decent riding no one hurt and the riders I like to watch winning races, you can have whatever rules you like. Whether you like it or not the rules are there to be carried out and nothing is going to change them until the end of the next season, so sit back and wait for the 2004 season to begin and enjoy "Our" sport. Congratulations to Middlo on taking up the position of Team GB Manager for another season. Have every faith in you, this year we will win the World Title Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Racer X 0 Posted November 20, 2003 as usual Steve - yours is a questionable call with inaccurate info and a poorly informed opinion (quite surprising as you appear to have talked to the England TM) If you look at the reaction to fans that have actually seen the golden double in action - they are not convinced, perhaps you should ask yourself whether all these fans have a point? Why should a rider get double points for no extra effort? It is simply illogical. You can follow the need for a bog standard TS but not this. "No guests" ? ...wrong - guests stay but restricted to number ones only. "plus of course the golden double off 15 metres, providing he has not been used as a tac from the line already."...wrong - there are NO tac subs - only Golden double tac subs so what you are saying here is wrong - even more worrying that it appears to be coming from Middlo. I would also quesion whether the grading system brings an end to "the dreaded points limit". As I understand the grading system a team has graded riders with values - so sorry BSPA you aren't fooling anyone (steve Shovlar apart that is!) this is a points limit by another name and all you have done is increased costs because teams will try and get the best grade riders possible. This is a disasterous move on its own and couples with the terrible Golden Jokers it makes the EL look very shakey indeed. I hope the likes of Swindon and Arena will survive it. Yes there are some good decision - the PL points limit, the restriction of doubling up, the banning of doubling down. Yes - there were some very good decisions but there are a few decisions here which will hurt our sport badly. Protest people !- I would suggest you complain to your local promotions sensibly and we just might get Golden Doubles axed when they come up for ratification later this year. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
philfromcov 326 Posted November 20, 2003 Ill amit it IM A FAN OF RIDER GRADING! Why? because the elite is too small with samll minds who just want to keep all the assets to themselves but have two extra teams to thrash at home with Ipswich almost like a british league cup team and then swindon and reading if we keep the present system, what top riders will they get? not many, so unless they were guarnteed top riders they wouldnt come up! I suspect this is the same for Ipswich. you either want an elite league or you dont, stop complaining. The premier league clearly doesnt want our teams, so its this or nothing! i would assume the top 10 riders are graded next 20 until you get three bands of three heat leaders, the rest is up to you! Although confused about which averages they will be using, but if you take the ones posted on this site Top 10 Jason Crump Leigh Adams Scott Nicholls Greg Hancock Ryan Sullivan Peter Karlsson Tony Rickardsson Nicki Pedersen Lee Richardson Billy Hamill So only Poole and coventry will have to lose a number 1. I dont think the grade can be average based ie above 8.50 is a grade A, because ther are 12 and that would imply 2 couldnt ride, restriction of trade its illegal, so it would have to be the top 12 averages. Althogh i can see many problems, ie if one of the top 10 above decides not to ride then number 11 will effectivley become grade A (MMAX) causing break up of teams due to other riders not coming back! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gemini 4,894 Posted November 20, 2003 So only Poole and coventry will have to lose a number 1. How do you work that out Phil? According to Bees Man on another thread, Coventry will probably have to let two of their top three go. Might as well ride in the Premier League. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
philfromcov 326 Posted November 20, 2003 This depends on the averages being used, which is a topic in itself! But the ones on this web site give 9 Richardson 8.76 10 hamill 8.72 13 jonsson 8.47 22 janirro 7.26 However if we would have to lose 2 of the 4 then i would without question keep Jonsson/Janirro Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
