Top 20 Brits Of The 80s

[ladyluck 1]

So here is my top 20:

 

1. Simon Wigg

A great ambassador for the sport, World No.2 in 89, twice British Champion, sole World Finalist in 84, a solid England performer throughout.

 

A great ambassador for the sport? Yes, I know his life was cut tragically short and that he was a fun sort of guy, but let's not forget the circumstances behind that 1984 world final appearance. Where was he in the world championship of 1985? Nowhere. He was banned.

[kaiser 3]

Look at Nielsens average in 86!!!Blimmey the guy must have hardly dropped a point all season!!! No wonder i used to boo him, just shows what a class act he was, top of the averages virtually throughout the decade, even in 1980 when he must have only been about 12

[lucifer sam 3,953]

Look at Nielsens average in 86!!!Blimmey the guy must have hardly dropped a point all season!!! No wonder i used to boo him, just shows what a class act he was, top of the averages virtually throughout the decade, even in 1980 when he must have only been about 12

 

The 11.83 figure is from BL matches only i.e. the second half of the season in 1986 (he averaged 12.00 away from home!!! ), . For 1985-1987, the League Cup took up the first half of the season and the British League the second, but to be consistent, I've used British League matches only throughout the decade.

 

Nielsen's 11.83 is the best league average recorded in British Speedway (qualification: six matches).

 

For interest, Nielsen's average from all offical meetings for Oxford in 1986 was a still pretty staggering 11.57, with 31 maximums from 45 official meetings.

 

All the best

Rob

Edited October 31, 2010 by lucifer sam

[kaiser 3]

Cheers for info Rob, the guy was sure consistant. Plus it was in a very competitive league full of geniuine world class riders, unlike the current watered down EL!!!I was shocked with Kev Jollys average in 1980, as i only really remember him at Peterborough in the mid 80s as a NL heat leader(man he was hard in them 4tt finals!!!).

[lucifer sam 3,953]

Cheers for info Rob, the guy was sure consistant. Plus it was in a very competitive league full of geniuine world class riders, unlike the current watered down EL!!!I was shocked with Kev Jollys average in 1980, as i only really remember him at Peterborough in the mid 80s as a NL heat leader(man he was hard in them 4tt finals!!!).

 

Kevin Jolly's 1980 BL average was from 9 meetings before he was injured. He's open to debate whether he could have kept that up for a whole season, but this name is listed in the averages in the 1981 Yearbook.

 

All the best

Rob

[lucifer sam 3,953]

The point system for calculating my top 20 is as follows:

 

World Final: 1st 25pts, 2nd 10pts, 3rd, 5pts, Finalist (including reserves) 1pt.

 

British Final/BLRC/ICF: 1st 3pts, 2nd 2pts, 3rd 1pt.

Winner of other Internationl Rounds Of World Championship (Commonwealth, Overseas): 2pts.

 

World Longtrack Champion: 5pts.

World Pairs Champion: 3pts.

World Team Cup Champion: 2pts (just 1pt for Cross in 1989 and none for non-riding Davis in 1980).

Euro U21 Champion: 2pts.

 

Top British rider in BL averages: 3pts (5pts if top rider overall in averages).

Second British rider in BL averages: 2pts.

Other riders with BL average in excess of 9.00 (8.00 in 1988 & 1989, due to intro of fixed gates and nominated race): 1pt.

 

British League Champions: 1pt for each rider in team (Qualification: 6 matches).

KO Cup Winners: 1pt for each rider in team (Qualification: 1 leg of final - excluding guests) (NB both Oxford & Cradley riders to get a point in 1986).

 

 

And this is the resultant list:

 

1. Michael Lee (53 pts) - 1980 World Champion, 1981 World Longtrack Champion, and also maybe the best rider in the world in 1983. Yes, he didn't last the whole of the decade, but he was capable of taking on and beating the best in an individual World Final (he made it look easy at Gothenburg in 1980), and there wasn't another British rider from the decade who could do that.

2. Simon Wigg (53 pts) - won no fewer than four British League titles during the decade. Twice British Champion (1998 & 1989) and World No.2 in 1989. Also an impressive all-rounder, who won the first two of five World Longtrack titles during the 1980s.

3. Chris Morton (38 pts) - there or thereabouts for the whole decade. Won the BLRC (1984), British Final (1983), World Pairs (1984), World Team Cup (1980) and Inter-Continental Final (1980), as well as leading Belle Vue to various honours. But never finished above eighth in an individual World Final.

4. Kelvin Tatum (36 pts) - something of a gater, but that didn't stop him racking up an impressive list of honours both individually and with Coventry in the closing years of the decade.

5. Kenny Carter (33 pts) - a huge talent, shown by a couple of wins apiece in the BLRC and British Final. However, he shone only rarely on the world stage and won only one World title (the 1983 World Pairs with Peter Collins).

6. Dave Jessup (31 pts) - had an incredible year in 1980, totting up the honours, and won the Overseas Final twice in 1981 & 1982.

7. Peter Collins (24 pts) - was arguably never the same after an injury at the end of the 1980 season, but still won more World titles (three Pairs and one WTC) than any other British rider in the 1980s.

8. Jeremy Doncaster (22 pts) - star of the 1989 World Team Cup winning side and also World No. 3 that year. Consistent at league level.

9. Les Collins (17 pts) - won the BLRC in 1980, Inter-Continental Final in 1982 and World No. 2 in 1982.

10. Simon Cross (13 pts) - 1988 Overseas Champion and nearly (alongside Tatum) upset the Danish applecart at the 1988 World Pairs.

11. Alan Grahame (13 pts) - along with Phil Collins, formed the "engine room" of the Cradley side that won so many honours during the 1980s. Also won a personal battle against Hodkinson's disease during the decade.

12. Phil Collins (13 pts) - 1983 Overseas Champion, a stalwart of the successful Cradley Heathens, and a battler on the track.

13. Andy Grahame (12 pts) - 1982 British Champion and also on the rostrum in 1983 & 1984, also won three league titles with Oxford.

14. Marvyn Cox (8 pts) - 1984 European Under-21 champion, and helped Oxford to three BL championships. Capable of passing any rider from behind.

15. John Davis (8 pts) - British No. 2 in 1985 and a World Finalist in 1980 & 1988.

16. Neil Evitts (6 pts) - 1986 British Champion and also a World Finalist that year.

17. Gordon Kennett (3 pts) - still a real force in the British League in the early eighties, with a near 10.00 average in 1981.

18. Steve Bastable (3 pts) - shock winner of the 1981 British Final.

19. Gary Havelock (3 pts) - 1987 European Under-21 Champion.

20. Paul Thorp (2 pts) - nearly reached the World Final as a National League rider in 1986, and part of the 1989 World Team Cup winning side. A very effective force around the old Belle Vue Hyde Road track.

 

All the best

Rob

Edited October 31, 2010 by lucifer sam

[fatface 2,552]

Interesting formula. One that I suspect weighs heavily in favour of your own opinions, but interesting nonetheless. In particular, I have a bit of an objection to the WLT being held in such high regard. It is a similar, but ultimately different sport with different skills required. It's also an event that really ebbed away in its importance. For someone like Simon Wigg and the top Germans, it was a huge priority event. But for pretty much every other top speedway rider of the 1980s and beyond, it was at best a bonus and at worst an irrelevance.

 

In my book it should play no role in determining the standing of speedway riders. Guys like Trevor Banks and Steve Schofield were top long-trackers/grass-trackers, probably better than say Hans Nielsen and Sam Ermolenko. As speedway riders? Not even in the same league. I wouldn't even attempt to produce an exact formula, it simply comes down to an opinion that you can back with a valid argument.

 

I have no great quarrel with anyone who would say that at their best Mike Lee and Kenny Carter (in the 80s) were better speedway riders than Chris Morton at his best. I think that can probably be justified. But for an overall contribution across the decade, I'd have to stick with Mort. Put yourself in the position of a team manager or promoter at the start of the 1980s, you can pick any British rider to represent your club for the whole of the decade. If you chose Mort, then you'd have to say, you made the right choice.

[lucifer sam 3,953]

Interesting formula. One that I suspect weighs heavily in favour of your own opinions, but interesting nonetheless. In particular, I have a bit of an objection to the WLT being held in such high regard. It is a similar, but ultimately different sport with different skills required. It's also an event that really ebbed away in its importance. For someone like Simon Wigg and the top Germans, it was a huge priority event. But for pretty much every other top speedway rider of the 1980s and beyond, it was at best a bonus and at worst an irrelevance.

 

In my book it should play no role in determining the standing of speedway riders. Guys like Trevor Banks and Steve Schofield were top long-trackers/grass-trackers, probably better than say Hans Nielsen and Sam Ermolenko. As speedway riders? Not even in the same league. I wouldn't even attempt to produce an exact formula, it simply comes down to an opinion that you can back with a valid argument.

 

I have no great quarrel with anyone who would say that at their best Mike Lee and Kenny Carter (in the 80s) were better speedway riders than Chris Morton at his best. I think that can probably be justified. But for an overall contribution across the decade, I'd have to stick with Mort. Put yourself in the position of a team manager or promoter at the start of the 1980s, you can pick any British rider to represent your club for the whole of the decade. If you chose Mort, then you'd have to say, you made the right choice.

 

Falcace,

 

I think the World Longtrack Championship remained an important event throughout the eighties - it was only in the nineties that its importance faded as top riders elected to ride in the emerging Polish league in preference to spending Sundays in Germany for the big Longtrack events.

 

Just look at the roll of honour for the 1980s:

1980 - Karl Maier

1981 - Michael Lee

1982 - Karl Maier

1983 - Shawn Moran

1984 - Erik Gundersen

1985 - Simon Wigg

1986 - Erik Gundersen

1987 - Karl Maier

1988 - Karl Maier

1989 - Simon Wigg

 

Two World Champions and two World No. 2's in that list. Add in names such of Ivan Mauger, Hans Nielsen, Peter Collins and Egon Muller, and it's plain to see that the cream of the crop rode in the World Longtrack during the 1980s.

 

The weighting of the various World Championship evetns was down to the number of riders in each championship. The Longtrack is in an individual so was 5 points, the Pairs is 3 points apiece (i.e. a total of 6), the World Team Cup is four or five riders (i.e. 8 to 10 points). I actually regard the World Team Cup as the second most important competition, but an individual has less less of an input, hence the points being shared amongst the riders.

 

I was amazed how close the list came out to the top 20 I had written down beforehand (the top three are in the same order, Tatum & Carter simply swapped positions, as did Jessup & Collins). No doubt I was subconsciously thinking about it, as I worked out the points system - I knew what I wanted to reward. It's the same with any devised way of working out such a list.

 

All the best

Rob

[fatface 2,552]

So, if we do take the World Long Track seriously then Karl Maier was one of the very best speedway riders of the 80s? Sorry Rob, I simply can't go along with that. It was an event of some standing at one time, probably more so in the 70s when the real top dogs Olsen, Mauger, PC and Michanek all gave it a real go. But in the 80s Penhall, Carter, Nielsen, Ermolenko, Sigalos, Knudsen, Sanders - all bona fide top liners - hardly bothered.

 

But as you quite rightly identify, its standing has altered as time has passed. Similarly with many other events. The World Pairs was a genuine biggie at one time, before it slipped into redundancy. The BLRC/ELRC was also perhaps the second biggest individual event on the calendar at one time..not any more. It's arguable that the World Cup Final has actually increased in standing in modern times. The point I am making is that it is very tricky to implement a formula to precisely measure different riders standings across a number of years based on selected competitions.

 

The world indivdual championship - in whatever guise - is the one which has consistently been of the same standing throughout. Even then, you can interpret it in many different ways for Brits in the 80s..

 

Highest finish - Mike Lee

Most finals - Chris Morton

Best average - Les Collins (1 final), Jeremy Doncaster (2 finals) or Kenny Carter (3 finals)

 

I don't have the precise science by any means..but I'm happy to have the debate

Edited November 2, 2010 by falcace

[lucifer sam 3,953]

Falcace, this was my original top 20, that I put together about a week ago, but didn't post because I wanted to look at the BL averages first:

 

1. Michael Lee

2. Simon Wigg

3. Chris Morton

4. Kenny Carter

5. Kelvin Tatum

6. Peter Collins

7. Dave Jessup

8. Les Collins

9. Jeremy Doncaster

10. Simon Cross

11. Marvyn Cox

12. Alan Grahame

13. Phil Collins

14. Andy Grahame

15. Neil Evitts

16. Paul Thorp

17. Andy Smith

18. John Davis

19. Steve Bastable

20. Joe Owen

 

As I said, it's uncannily like the list I then ended up with once I decided to award points. One reason I did this is because I'm not terribly objective when it comes to British riders in the 1980s. Marvyn Cox & Simon Wigg were heroes of mine, whilst I never liked either Carter or Tatum. Whereas I could be objective about the 70s, I can't do likewise in the 80s. So I thought awarding points for what I thought should be rewarded was a better way for me to do it, only to end up with almost exactly the same list again!!!!

 

Personally, for me, Michael Lee has to be the No. 1. Watch a video of his rides in the 1980 World Final and his sensational pass of Bruce Penhall. Was there another British rider during the 1980-1989 period capable of that kind of performance? No.

 

Meanwhile, Chris Morton was admirably consistent (although he never actually topped the BL averages), but the major sticking point is his World Final record. It's just not good enough for him to be considered the best British rider of the 1980s. IMHO the top man has to a winner - at the very, very top level.

 

All the best

Rob

Edited November 2, 2010 by lucifer sam

[TonyMac 720]

Thanks chaps for your interesting debate and exhaustive but informative research which has made for good debate. A couple of points though:

 

1. Tend to agree with Falcace that the importance of the long-track should not be overblown. Many would argue, quite validly, that the emphasis here was on speed and top machinery, and not skill.

 

2. Rob, as you know I have a lot of time for Michael and Kenny for that matter. But there is a school of thought that they were both the architects of their own (speedway) destruction in the 80s, especially Mike who went off the rails. KC, it could be argued, suffered too many injuries borne out of desperation (especially the one at Ipswich prior to the ’81 World Final).

 

3. While ML’s pass of Bruce in the 80 WF was brilliant, there can surely be no doubt that Mort produced similar feats of amazement week after week at Belle Vue. Home advantage? Not much. Hyde Road was the fairest track in the land.

 

4. I share Rob’s inclination to give added emphasis to what a rider achieved at the highest level, in World Finals when the pressure was really on, and in this respect ML was the man in both 80 and 83 (he would probably have won it had the final not been in Germany). In this respect, Mike of course cannot be compared to Jerzy you know who.

 

5. But there is something quite relevant in what Falcace says about Mort’s consistency year in, year out throughout the whole of the 80s. He remained a constant quality rider, for club and country, well after Mike and Kenny had fallen by the wayside for whatever reason.

 

Let the debate continue!

[fatface 2,552]

It is an enjoyable debate. The reason being there is no clear cut candidate. I think we can all agree that Mike Lee's World Final win of 1980 was the greatest performance by any British rider in the decade. That goes without saying - it was outstanding. But thereafter, I would argue that Chris Morton, Kenny Carter, Simon Wigg and Kelvin Tatum all had the better record for the last nine years of the decade. If Mike hadn't gone off the rails and maintained his excellence, then we wouldn't be having this discussion.

 

Rob makes a valid point about Mort's World Final record being poor. For a rider of his ability, it really is. He must cringe whenever he sees it. Nonetheless, he still reached the final more than any other Brit in the 80s, proving he was amongst the best in the world for a sustained period. There's no doubt that the World Championship is the acid test for speedway riders, but it should also not paint the whole picture.

 

Some riders are probably quite flattered by their World Championship record..eg. Finn Thompson, Kelly Moran, Kai Niemi. Other riders records in the World Championships probably provide an unfair reflection of ther standing. Bobby Schwartz is the obvious example. Guys like Shawn Moran and Phil Crump were also real top line performers for a long time, but you wouldn't think so if you just looked at their World Champs record. For me, Mort falls into this bracket too.

 

As a final point on why I believe Mort to be the top British rider of the decade, I think I can confidently say that no British rider scored more points in the British League during the 1980s and no other rider scored more points for England. Indeed, Mort was top scoring for England against USA in test matches in 1980 and he was still doing the same in 1989. No one else gets anywhere near that high level of consistency through the decade.

[lucifer sam 3,953]

Some riders are probably quite flattered by their World Championship record..eg. Finn Thompson, Kelly Moran, Kai Niemi. Other riders records in the World Championships probably provide an unfair reflection of ther standing. Bobby Schwartz is the obvious example. Guys like Shawn Moran and Phil Crump were also real top line performers for a long time, but you wouldn't think so if you just looked at their World Champs record. For me, Mort falls into this bracket too.

 

Falcace, I can see what you're saying, although Chris Morton is a bit different from the other riders. Both Shawn Moran & Phil Crump both finished on the World Final rostrum, although it's true that their overall World Final record do not go anywhere near their ability.

 

As for Schwartz, it just shows how mega-tough the American round was in the 1980s that a rider of his quality never reached the final.

 

Chris Morton had plenty of opportunites in World Final, yet he never even got remotely close to the rostrum. It's probably down to his (lack of) gating skills, something it's very, very difficult to get away with in a World Final.

 

Chris Morton clearly was a very talented speedway rider. But he lacks that extra something that seperates an Individual World Champion from the rest of the crowd. Something that Michael Lee had. And therefore I still plump for Lee to be No. 1 rather than Chris Morton.

 

And if you're after consistency, I would point in the direction of Simon Wigg, a top rider for pretty much the whole decade (he spent the first few years of the decade emerging, but then again, so did Peter Collins in the 1970s). Wiggy could match Mort for consistency with the extra bonus that he could find that little bit extra in World Finals. And Wiggy's roll call of success is very, very long - he was a born winner.

 

I agree it's an enjoyable debate, and that there's no clear-cut stand-out name. It's all down to opinion.

 

All the best

Rob

Edited November 3, 2010 by lucifer sam

[fatface 2,552]

I think the one thing we can agree on is that we're not going to agree.

 

I'd compare the debate to say one about the best Man Utd player of the last 20 years. Guys like Cantona, Beckham and Ronaldo were all brilliant for them for a short while, but guys like Giggs and Scholes have been top quality for a sustained time. Whoever you choose depends on what floats your boat the most..short-term brilliance or long-term quality. Anyway, now I am talking football, it's probably time to take my leave from the debate!

 

cheers

Chris

[salty 2,202]

Interesting debate. Especially to see Rob trying to bolt a statistical analysis onto something which ultimately is quite subjective.

 

So what wins out - the decade long consistency of Mort against the meteoric heights reached by Mike the Bike.

 

Lee was brilliant in 1980, but then had two difficult years before being revitalised by the move down to Poole in 1983. I remember watching him around Wimborne Road that summer and thinking how good it was to see him back to his best. Unfortunately, that was as good as it got as the next couple of seasons were ones of decline for various reasons.

 

Mort on the other hand was at the top throughout the decade but was never able to deliver on World Final night. Ultimately his failure to gate consistently well meant he was never able to have a sniff of the podium.

 

Because of that win in Gothenburg I have to go for Lee as number 1 in the 80's.

 

I would agree largely with Rob's list and order to be honest, so maybe statistics do have their uses.

Edited November 3, 2010 by salty