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Carter Where Does He Rate With The Great British Riders?

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Can't Split Peter Collins or M Lee, closely folloewd By Simmons,Jessup and Carter.

Jessup had far too many silly breakdowns for a rider of his level.

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I think it's obvious why Carter never fulfilled his potential.

As he said himself, "I broke down in 1981, I got knocked off in 1982, 1983 was a bad year..."

 

And of course, he broke his leg in 1984 and 1985 and we all know about 1986.

 

I don't think he can be accused of not stepping up to it in World Championships:

 

1981: 3,2,3,E,3 = 11 (5th)

1982: 3,3,3,X,1 = 10 (5th)

1983: 2,3,3,1,1 = 10 (5th)

1984: injured

1985: injured

 

I just think he was desperately unlucky.

 

 

He was unbeaten going into heat 14 in 1982. There's no question that what happened in that heat completely destroyed his morale but up until that point he was very dominant and looked very capable of winning it.

 

In 1981 I seem to recall both he and Gundersen were leading when they broke down.

 

Kenny Carter never stood on top of a world championship podium in an individual event when the qualifiers from the British Final were joined by the best of the Americans, Scandinavians and Australasians. So YES i think we can accuse him of not stepping up to it in World Championships.

 

 

We are talking about a rider who was lying either first or second in three, yes, three World Finals. But after the heat twelve interval he completly lost his focus. Wembley in 1981, he misses the gate and was lying third when his engine mysteriously died. Los Angeles in 1982 he misses the gate and was lying third when he chose the wrong option and ran out of room in his tussle with Bruce Penhall. Norden in 1983, he misses the gate and was lying third, Kenny, not being renowned from the back, settles for third and with it goes his last chance of becoming World champion.

Now that's got nothing to do with being quote "desperately unlucky" it's more to do with someone who has a mental block and is lacking the trackcraft of a Collins, Olsen or Mauger when plan "A" backfires.

 

Kenny Carter was lying third when he stopped at Wembley in '81.

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I stand corrected on the EF in 1981, as I wasn't certain to be honest.

 

However, in the World Championship rounds you quite rightly say he never won a round after the British Final stage, but everyone knows it was all about qualification. Winning was an added bonus but to infer that he couldn't do it once up against the Americans and Australasians is incorrect because in 1982 he finished 2nd in the Overseas Final to Dave Jessup, ahead of all the Americans and Australasians. In 1983, again he finished 2nd in the Overseas Final to Phil Collins, ahead of all the Americans and Australasians.

In 1984 he was contesting all the rounds with a broken leg and was only interested in trying to get enough points to get through. in 1985 he was in a run-off for 1st place in the Overseas Final on 14 points with Shawn Moran, which he lost but with 14 points he could easily have won most rounds.

 

When I refer to bad luck, remember he was riding in the 1982 World Final only weeks after leaving intensive care with a collapsed lung and wasn't 100% fit. I also believe he was unlucky in heat 14. It could have gone either way and Bruce was lucky to get another chance as he too was in third place during that race. With Penhall gone and PC unlikely to make a second gate, which he didn't, Carter may have been unbeaten going into his last race. We don't know, but again, luck wasn't on his side but it definitely was with BP.

 

1983, no excuses. He flopped. But in 1984 he was dogged with that broken leg which beat him in the end. In 1985, he crashed out of the Intercontinental Final on a soaking wet Vojens with a broken leg again. If that's not bad luck I don't know what is.

 

A fully fit Carter would surely have made the 1984 and 1985 World Finals; the latter being on his home track. There was much more to come from him no doubt but alas we never got to see it.

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Wembley in 1981, he misses the gate and was lying third when his engine mysteriously died.

 

Kenny Carter was lying third when he stopped at Wembley in '81.

 

This is a rather strange representation of the events of Heat 15 at Wembley.

 

Dave Jessup gated first (no surprise there) ahead of Carter and the other two. Carter got into a firm second - ahead of Gundersen and Olsen - as they were going down the back straight.

But by the time they go around bends 3 and 4 Carter's bike is popping and banging so loud as to be audible above the Wembley crowd. He is clearly losing power and ground so first Gundersen goes past as they cross the start line at the end of lap one and then Olsen as they go down the back straight.

 

I don't think any of this matters in terms of the debate raised by the original poster; but you're characterisation of that partcular race and the bizarre inference of his engine 'myseriously' dying certainly cannot be allowed to go unchallenged.

 

I stand corrected on the EF in 1981, as I wasn't certain to be honest.

 

Please don't be!

 

The video is around on You Tube so I encourage everyone to look at it and judge for themselves.

Edited by Grand Central

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This is a rather strange representation of the events of Heat 15 at Wembley.

 

Dave Jessup gated first (no surprise there) ahead of Carter and the other two. Carter got into a firm second - ahead of Gundersen and Olsen - as they were going down the back straight.

But by the time they go around bends 3 and 4 Carter's bike is popping and banging so loud as to be audible above the Wembley crowd. He is clearly losing power and ground so first Gundersen goes past as they cross the start line at the end of lap one and then Olsen as they go down the back straight.

 

I don't think any of this matters in terms of the debate raised by the original poster; but you're characterisation of that partcular race and the bizarre inference of his engine 'myseriously' dying certainly cannot be allowed to go unchallenged.

 

I don't think it's a strange representation of the events of heat 15 at all.

I have not seen any video footage of the race and can only go off what my memory tells me. And this is that Kenny Carter, who was quite a handy gater, misses the gate and is trailing Dave Jessup. I think that if you remember correctly, thats what happens. Erik Gundersen, who was on fast equipment on that evening was lying in third. Erik Gundersen then passes Kenny Carter who is visibly losing power and eventually grinds to a stop. I think that if you remember correctly, thats what happens. My interpretation of the events is that Erik Gundersen who was flying on the said evening was passing Carter irrespective of any engine trouble. But even if Carter had finished second in heat 15 and then gone on to win his last race, which he duly did, that would of put him on 13pts, and 13pts means no world title.

 

My inference of his engine "mysteriously" dying is that based on the evidence it was mysterious. I don't think up to that point i had ever seen Kenny Carter have a spluttering engine. Couple that with the fact that Kenny had Ivan Mauger in is corner, and Mauger was renowned for having strong engines and for not taking anything to chance, particularly in a big meeting, then i can only conclude that it was mysterious. Mysterious in that i would not of expected that to happen.

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I don't think it's a strange representation of the events of heat 15 at all.

I have not seen any video footage of the race and can only go off what my memory tells me. And this is that Kenny Carter, who was quite a handy gater, misses the gate and is trailing Dave Jessup. I think that if you remember correctly, thats what happens. Erik Gundersen, who was on fast equipment on that evening was lying in third. Erik Gundersen then passes Kenny Carter who is visibly losing power and eventually grinds to a stop. I think that if you remember correctly, thats what happens. My interpretation of the events is that Erik Gundersen who was flying on the said evening was passing Carter irrespective of any engine trouble. But even if Carter had finished second in heat 15 and then gone on to win his last race, which he duly did, that would of put him on 13pts, and 13pts means no world title.

 

My inference of his engine "mysteriously" dying is that based on the evidence it was mysterious. I don't think up to that point i had ever seen Kenny Carter have a spluttering engine. Couple that with the fact that Kenny had Ivan Mauger in is corner, and Mauger was renowned for having strong engines and for not taking anything to chance, particularly in a big meeting, then i can only conclude that it was mysterious. Mysterious in that i would not of expected that to happen.

 

I am glad that in this much fuller description of Heat 15 you readily acknowledge that Carter was actually in SECOND place to Jessup when he was first 'visibly losing power' and it was at this point that Gundersen went passed. You're original post had stated that he was third. It is certainly true that Gundersen went like an express train once Carter was out of the race but it is pure conjecture as to whether he would have passed Carter had his bike not been failing.

 

It has to also be remembered that Jessup himself also suffred an engine failure before the end of the race thereby giving both Gundersen and Olsen an extra point that significantly changed the pattern of the overall scorers at the end of the meeting. The well-known Penhall 14, Olsen 12, Knudsen 12 would be looking an awful lot different were it not for the randomness of engine troubles on that night.

 

I have to say that if Kenny Carter had a 'Second to Penhall in 1981 at Wembley' tag rather than the no-where placing that fifth is; then quite a lot of retrospective pro-Carter arguments would carry a ton more weight.

 

And, totally irrelevent to this debate, but Ivan Mauger was certainly renowned for 'strong engines' and not leaving things to chance but as his catastrophic break down when leading in 1976 showed ... even he, the greatest rider ever (my view) was actually fallible in this regard. But not actually mysterious, really, is it?

Edited by Grand Central

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I am glad that in this much fuller description of Heat 15 you readily acknowledge that Carter was actually in SECOND place to Jessup when he was first 'visibly losing power' and it was at this point that Gundersen went passed. You're original post had stated that he was third. It is certainly true that Gundersen went like an express train once Carter was out of the race but it is pure conjecture as to whether he would have passed Carter had his bike not been failing.

 

It has to also be remembered that Jessup himself also suffred an engine failure before the end of the race thereby giving both Gundersen and Olsen an extra point that significantly changed the pattern of the overall scorers at the end of the meeting. The well-known Penhall 14, Olsen 12, Knudsen 12 would be looking an awful lot different were it not for the randomness of engine troubles on that night.

 

I have to say that if Kenny Carter had a 'Second to Penhall in 1981 at Wembley' tag rather than the no-where placing that fifth is; then quite a lot of retrospective pro-Carter arguments would carry a ton more weight.

 

And, totally irrelevent to this debate, but Ivan Mauger was certainly renowned for 'strong engines' and not leaving things to chance but as his catastrophic break down when leading in 1976 showed ... even he, the greatest rider ever (my view) was actually fallible in this regard. But not actually mysterious, really, is it?

I was actually amazed that his second account of what happened was totally different to his original and almost mirrored that of what you had told him. Yet he was trying to remind you of what you had already stated!

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I was actually amazed that his second account of what happened was totally different to his original and almost mirrored that of what you had told him. Yet he was trying to remind you of what you had already stated!

 

Thank you, I was beginning to doubt my own sanity for a moment!

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Jessup had far too many silly breakdowns for a rider of his level.

Have to agree it was nearly always at Big Meetings,was a class act as a rider though.

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I loved watching him ride was a terrific rider.But i never felt in any of those years he was good anough to win it.Even when Michael Lee was on his game Carter for me was never Englands no1.Didnt see it wish i had remember Mike destroying Carter for the Golden Helmet at Halifax beat him 4.0 over both legs.

I was there and it was jaw dropping. Those on the forum with better memories than me will be able to confirm or deny this but I seem to recall that Lee was using his "Gold Top" engine.. he absolutely destroyed KC at Shay. Needless to say I was not a happy boy.

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I was there and it was jaw dropping. Those on the forum with better memories than me will be able to confirm or deny this but I seem to recall that Lee was using his "Gold Top" engine.. he absolutely destroyed KC at Shay. Needless to say I was not a happy boy.

Lucky bloke, wish id been there Carter was terrific at the shay.Over the years i dont think Mike rode the shay much, so to do that took some doing.Ithink the times were mega fast. Make no mistake if you saw Kenny alot you were lucky i would of paid regular money to see him ride more i went once a year to the shay loved it had a lovely clubhouse nice pint as well. Track awesome to watch Carter thou he was exciting and boy he was mega talented make no mistake.

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Having just started watching speedway at the begining of the 80s, i was fortunate to see a fare amount of Carter be it at Hyde road or the Shay. KC was world class make no mistake of that. I remember him winning back to back BLRCs (when the line up was tougher than most world finals).He was Englands main man in the 80s, and the only brit capable of beating the top danes and yanks on a consistant basis. People allow there personal opinion of Carter, to cloud there judgement of him as a rider, both have to be seperated. As a person he was a murderer and a killer who orphaned his children, but as a speedway rider he really was top line(just watch the 84 British final!!!).

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Having just started watching speedway at the begining of the 80s, i was fortunate to see a fare amount of Carter be it at Hyde road or the Shay. KC was world class make no mistake of that. I remember him winning back to back BLRCs (when the line up was tougher than most world finals).He was Englands main man in the 80s, and the only brit capable of beating the top danes and yanks on a consistant basis. People allow there personal opinion of Carter, to cloud there judgement of him as a rider, both have to be seperated. As a person he was a murderer and a killer who orphaned his children, but as a speedway rider he really was top line(just watch the 84 British final!!!).

Who at there best in the 80s was the better rider Lee or Carter?i liked both riders both terrific riders .No doubt in my mind a totally Switched on Lee wins all day.Ask Penhall,Gundersen,Nielsen who they feared the most i think they would say Mike as Lee had a terrific head to head record against all those 3 great riders.

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Class rider who never fulfilled his undoubted talent which would put him behind many other great British riders!

Edited by 25yearfan

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Having just started watching speedway at the begining of the 80s, i was fortunate to see a fare amount of Carter be it at Hyde road or the Shay. KC was world class make no mistake of that. I remember him winning back to back BLRCs (when the line up was tougher than most world finals).He was Englands main man in the 80s, and the only brit capable of beating the top danes and yanks on a consistant basis. People allow there personal opinion of Carter, to cloud there judgement of him as a rider, both have to be seperated. As a person he was a murderer and a killer who orphaned his children, but as a speedway rider he really was top line(just watch the 84 British final!!!).

Not sure that is totally true about the only rider to be able to beat the Danes etc....I was at the 85 test at Oxford and Carter was poor.Was there a valid reason that i have forgotten?But looking at the England scores and Carter only topped them two years against Denmark.

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