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Carter Where Does He Rate With The Great British Riders?

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Excellent posting from DaveG - a very perceptive account of that era. I loved Gordon Kennett and he was superb around White City (which I also loved) but he was never in truth World Champ material - even though, of course, he did fantastically make second in '78.

Dave Jessup was to me actually a lesser star than Gordon (but that was probably just me!) - but the facts speak for themselves and he was desperately unlucky never to be world champ...

This is where it can get interesting! Overall, I would say that DJ was a better rider, as illustrated by six World Final appearances, with five Top 8 finishes. In 1980, it could certainly be said that he was the best rider in the World. However - and this may sound strange, I don't know - but as far as overall ability and trackcraft, I wouldn't put him in the same class as Kennett. Jessup relied more on gating and speed than most riders I've seen, and I honestly don't recall seeing him make the clever moves as displayed by Collins, Lee, Kennett, Simmons, Loram, Morton etc. Honestly, I have seen incredible trackcraft by Roger Johns, Barry Thomas, and many other "lesser" riders, riders who weren't actually in the same class as DJ.

 

With regard to legitimate World Championship material, I would certainly put Les Collins up there with Gordon Kennett as unlikely. One World Final and one runner-up finish (I'm not old enough to comment on Wally Green!), although Kennett was much more of a superstar in league speedway.

 

Steve

Edited by chunky

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Thank you all I am really enjoying these posts and have very similar sentiments to Chunky with regards trackcraft and it is clear I hope from my postings that I loved team matches more than the individual championships. That said I probably for all the reasons mentioned believe that Jessup is probably the unlucky man as individual meetings go.

 

It must be noted though that and I will not bore by placing my top 20 Brits on this forum remember that for a few years in particularly the period say 73-78 that many Englishman could have climbed the rostrum in 1st place with conditions, luck etc going their way. It would be wrong of course to deride individual riders too much as the qualifications for finals was erratic to say the least.

 

5.John Louis

6. Martin Ashby

7.Terry Betts

8. Doug Wyer

9.Gordon Kennett

10.Jim McMillan

11. George Hunter

12. Ray Wilson

13. Bob Kilby

14. Chris Morton

 

This was my 5 to 14 listing on British top 20 please remember that my postings were considering all aspects of their contributions to the sport. Number of World Final appearances between them not many really. Hindsight is great think Kennett is now low as Ray Wilson but had to fit them all in somewhere.

 

And their lies the problem with World Finals I saw either live ( A few ) or video none of the above cracked it and neither did Malcolm Simmons , Dave Jessup who were in my top 4. Would you have wanted any of the above in your home team Hell Yeh .

 

Qualification for the Final was the problem and maybe more difficult. Anyone of the above riders could have won or climbed the podium in a British Final if firing right on the night.

 

Consider the World Final though Jiri Stancl, Jerzy Rembas, Marek Ciselak, Illa Teroma and may other less well known Poles, Russians and Scandinavians did get there. Jancarz was the consistently best of the East Europeans but could never replicate his 1968 3rd. And were would Jancarz have fitted in the above list if British (Lets speculate a 10 year career in Britain probably around 7th). OK I know it could have gone either way with him on his night he could have been Top 3 at other times about 15th

 

Now back the Carter thread he was not competing with any of the above really most were nearer the end of their careers as his took off Lee did though so still place him higher. Do not though think Carter had as much trackcraft as probably any of the above Brits and that might have been what he really needed to learn. At their peaks and I am only going to mention a few Louis through tenacity, Simmons through making himself wide and Jessup gating would have kept Penhall at Bay.

 

Now and I setting myself up for a hit here I know as it is outside my time period. The Grand Prix system I guess ( I will learn) is more of a War of attrition rewarding lets say consistent performances. So lets put it back into the 1970's and 1980's.

 

So thats Simmons, Kennett, Olsen, Michanek, Mauger, Collins,Crump?, Louis? as possible World Champions through the 70's .

 

Ehmm and 4 of them did it so we are still trying to fit so many into 10 slots LOL.

Edited by DaveG

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Always difficult when you try to compare riders from different decades. In the 70's we were spoiled for choice. But for me the greatest "racer" - was Peter Collins. I use the word racer as opposed to that of speedway rider. Peter wasn't always the quickest out of the gate, like the gate and go riders, but who provided the most excitement? - riders like Collins and Chris Morton, they were masters at coming from the back - four laps of pure excitement as opposed to the "gate and go" greats. I know who I would prefer to watch. Belle Vue were indeed truly blessed in the days of Collins and Morton.

 

"The Mackem"

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Excellent posting from DaveG - a very perceptive account of that era. I loved Gordon Kennett and he was superb around White City (which I also loved) but he was never in truth World Champ material - even though, of course, he did fantastically make second in '78.

Dave Jessup was to me actually a lesser star than Gordon (but that was probably just me!) - but the facts speak for themselves and he was desperately unlucky never to be world champ...

i was never a fan of DJ also Kennett i thought was just a whiteline rider but i was wrong.But make no mistake Gordon was a top class rider and he had a great career.Who was the better out of DJ and Kennett at all the northern venues and Exeter? Gordon for me.

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Thank you all I am really enjoying these posts and have very similar sentiments to Chunky with regards trackcraft and it is clear I hope from my postings that I loved team matches more than the individual championships. That said I probably for all the reasons mentioned believe that Jessup is probably the unlucky man as individual meetings go.

 

It must be noted though that and I will not bore by placing my top 20 Brits on this forum remember that for a few years in particularly the period say 73-78 that many Englishman could have climbed the rostrum in 1st place with conditions, luck etc going their way. It would be wrong of course to deride individual riders too much as the qualifications for finals was erratic to say the least.

 

5.John Louis

6. Martin Ashby

7.Terry Betts

8. Doug Wyer

9.Gordon Kennett

10.Jim McMillan

11. George Hunter

12. Ray Wilson

13. Bob Kilby

14. Chris Morton

 

This was my 5 to 14 listing on British top 20 please remember that my postings were considering all aspects of their contributions to the sport. Number of World Final appearances between them not many really. Hindsight is great think Kennett is now low as Ray Wilson but had to fit them all in somewhere.

 

And their lies the problem with World Finals I saw either live ( A few ) or video none of the above cracked it and neither did Malcolm Simmons , Dave Jessup who were in my top 4. Would you have wanted any of the above in your home team Hell Yeh .

 

Qualification for the Final was the problem and maybe more difficult. Anyone of the above riders could have won or climbed the podium in a British Final if firing right on the night.

 

I have to speak up for my fave Chris Morton. He won everything there was to win except the World Final and he reached that on seven occasions. He gathered over 100 England caps and captained both his club and country. I am biased, but I'm sure 99/100 would rank him well above some of the names you have mentioned.

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I have to speak up for my fave Chris Morton. He won everything there was to win except the World Final and he reached that on seven occasions. He gathered over 100 England caps and captained both his club and country. I am biased, but I'm sure 99/100 would rank him well above some of the names you have mentioned.

I agree 100%; I would certainly put Mort higher than all of those listed from 5-13. I'd also put Willy above Wyer, McMillan, Hunter, and Kilby.

 

Steve

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IMHO the greatest rider in the '70s era never to be World Champ was John 'Tiger' Louis... Not sure he has really had the place due to him in the history of our sport...

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I'm reading Alan Carters book at the moment. Cannot find a thread for it on here though. There must be one can someone point me in the right direction please?

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IMHO the greatest rider in the '70s era never to be World Champ was John 'Tiger' Louis... Not sure he has really had the place due to him in the history of our sport...

I agree that he is often overlooked, yet for a late starter in the sport, his achievements should put him up there with the very best.

 

Steve

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Nice to see all the chat after nearly 30 years away much appreciated done from fading but now improving memory. Morton was a emerging star of the 70's his world finals appearances ( And might be wrong here from memory) were primarily in the 1980's.

 

Hence why he was down my 70's listing. That said Belle Vue made great use of the numbering system namely that it was actually better not to have your best rider at Number 1. Away from home you could then target the home number 1 more times.

 

Thanks for all chat 10 places from 1970 to 1979 Mauger 4 Olsen 3, Collins 1, Michanek 1 and the once a decade unexpected win from 1973 Jerzy Szczakiel theres not much room to fit any one else in Mauger and Olsen were certainly on the podium a few times as well.

 

Chris Morton 1980's performances I think I stopped following really around 1983 would bear some comparison with Michaneks 1970's aside from the fact the latter got a win.

 

Nice to chat

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Chris Morton 1980's performances I think I stopped following really around 1983 would bear some comparison with Michaneks 1970's aside from the fact the latter got a win.

 

Nice to chat

 

Nice to as well!

Not sure I totally followed all of the last posting but I think have to take some issue with the comparison between Chris Morton & Anders Michanek.

Michanek was surely the best rider in the world in '73, was an outstanding winner of the World Final in '74 and dropped only one point (to winner Olsen) in finishing second in '75. Mort couldn't in truth claim any of those things in any year...

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Nice to as well!

Not sure I totally followed all of the last posting but I think have to take some issue with the comparison between Chris Morton & Anders Michanek.

Michanek was surely the best rider in the world in '73, was an outstanding winner of the World Final in '74 and dropped only one point (to winner Olsen) in finishing second in '75. Mort couldn't in truth claim any of those things in any year...

 

I would agree with that to be honest. Michanek was head and shoulders in 1973 and pretty darn good in 75. No league form to judge 1974 on but a World Title is a pretty good yardstick. Mort, for all his consistency in the early eighties at league level his lack of starting technique meant he was never a really serious contender for the big one

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Hi just redressing what looked like my oversight with Morton my point being that Morton was late 70's to mid late 80's I think and given the amount of World Finals he reached looked low on my original rating.

 

I really am going out on a limb here and am struggling hard to remember the 13 Heat Format but Belle Vue particularly did not have their best rider at Number 1 like most other teams so as a consequence their best rider Collins rode against the opposing number 1 more than if they he were number 1. It is a very good idea actually as most teams are looking for 11-12 points from their number 1 at home. With Collins and Morton against you all night there was a serious chance of your number 1 being beaten up to 3 times concevably 3rd in heat 12.

 

Now you number 1 has scored perhaps between 7-9 points with your number 4's score also low your scratching about for points.

 

If I wrong I will find some Old programmes on E bay to get that right I am sure that the home number 1's met the away numbers 3 and 5 twice in heat 12 both of them (Sure thats right 1-4 vs 3-5) so a strong number 3 or 5 was of great value. The number 1's meet once.

 

Ok the Belle Vue I remember had Wilkinson at 1 surely he was not the best of the 3 heat leaders he did guest for Wimbledon once I remember either for Janssons death or Jancarz's early season blues and rode well but not spectacular.

 

Good to Talk Thanks again.

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Hi just redressing what looked like my oversight with Morton my point being that Morton was late 70's to mid late 80's I think and given the amount of World Finals he reached looked low on my original rating.

 

I really am going out on a limb here and am struggling hard to remember the 13 Heat Format but Belle Vue particularly did not have their best rider at Number 1 like most other teams so as a consequence their best rider Collins rode against the opposing number 1 more than if they he were number 1. It is a very good idea actually as most teams are looking for 11-12 points from their number 1 at home. With Collins and Morton against you all night there was a serious chance of your number 1 being beaten up to 3 times concevably 3rd in heat 12.

 

Now you number 1 has scored perhaps between 7-9 points with your number 4's score also low your scratching about for points.

 

If I wrong I will find some Old programmes on E bay to get that right I am sure that the home number 1's met the away numbers 3 and 5 twice in heat 12 both of them (Sure thats right 1-4 vs 3-5) so a strong number 3 or 5 was of great value. The number 1's meet once.

 

Ok the Belle Vue I remember had Wilkinson at 1 surely he was not the best of the 3 heat leaders he did guest for Wimbledon once I remember either for Janssons death or Jancarz's early season blues and rode well but not spectacular.

 

Good to Talk Thanks again.

 

The home number 3 (at Belle Vue invariably PC) met the away number 1 in heats 11 and 13. In heat 13 he was joined by the home number 5 (generall Mort in that era) so yes, it was never easy for a visiting number 1 to get a max at Belle Vue in that era. Teams often played about with line ups, Exeter were known to have Ivan at 2 to combat a team using a tac sub in an otherwise weak heat 8 if Exeter had built a 6 point lead. It does of course leave you vulnerable elsewhere but that was the art of team managing, a modern team manager is largely redundant to be honest, fixed gates, riders having to take certain positions in the team combine to give him no leeway at all

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Thank you for that post lot to learn about modern speedway for me then .

 

Thanks it was also a good ploy away if you then accepted the home number 1 would probably win Heat 1 but then be up against it after that.

 

Wimbledon were just lucky to have 7 to put out i think LOL

 

 

Thanks all for posts

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