Ross Garrigan 2 Posted November 1, 2011 OK Jack, let's draw the line here and start again. People have commented on this thread who have contributed significantly in print to the reporting of speedway history. These people are the ones who are trying to help those who are following this thread because they want to know the truth about Johnnie Hoskins/Maitland. Any historian worth his salt will tell you that folk law, memories, and hear-say are not a good basis on which to compile history. Few people actually know the meaning of the word "history". Re Ian Hoskins, he has written books, many speedway articles, and has written on websites. Unfortunately his memories are not always factual. I could give examples of when Ian really made somewhat of a fool of himself with what he wrote. On one occasion he even went as far as to have a go at me in print concerning something I wrote about his father. History will always win out and proof was furnished that I was correct and Ian's memories were wrong. I still await an apology. I would dearly love to spend a day with Ian and take him to our library and show him that what I have been trying to tell him for a decade is true. People are entitled to their own opinion, but diligent research proves that speedway evolved and was not invented with the staging of one carnival at Maitland. However, one point I always stress is that the carnivals staged on the Maitland Show Ground during the 1923-24 season advanced the evolution of Australian speedway to a new level. In all my research I had never found so many occasions in such a short time at which motor cycle racing was featured on carnival and sporting programs at one venue. This continuity of racing enabled the riders to improve their racing skills, adapt their machinery to the track and conditions, and even to purchase new machinery more suitable to racing. The continuity also proved a positive as far as building a spectator following was concerned. During the 1923-24 Maitland carnival season, motor cycles raced on 15 programs during a period of just over 4 months. Johnnie Hoskins, in his position as secretary to the local Show Society, was only involved in the staging of 3 of those 15, other promoters staged the other 12. Few know that fact. What happened at Maitland the following season advanced the evolution of speedway to yet a higher level as the season of motor cycle racing at Maitland in 1924-25 was staged on a loose surface whereas in 1923-24 the surface was grass. Prior to the commencement of the 1924-25 season work was carried out on the Maitland track to make it more friendly to motor cycle racing. I am the first to give Johnnie Hoskins credit for what he actually did do for speedway, but it is folly to credit him for what he didn't do. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ross Garrigan 2 Posted November 1, 2011 I'll say just a few more things and call an end to this. For decades I too believed that Johnnie Hoskins invented speedway at Maitland. That's what people had written for decades so why wouldn't I think it was correct? When I retired from full-time work I started my speedway research at the State Library here in Brisbane. Now I know that what people had been writing for decades was not correct. Because I too once believed the Hoskins/Maitland myth, I can understand why many are horrified when a few start writing that what has been believed for decades is wrong. If people still want to believe that Hoskins invented speedway at Maitland on December 15, 1923, even having seen well researched and documented evidence that he didn't, so be it. Let's look at the word "speedway" as used in discussions and arguments concerning December 15, 1923 Maitland. Having seen newspaper advertisements for the staging of carnivals at sports grounds and show grounds across Australia from as far back as the first decade of the 20th century, I can say that at first the motor cycle races at these carnivals were referred to as "motor" races. Then with the advent of motor cars into our society, the term "motor cycle" races came into prominence. In the advertising and the carnival reports and results of the 1923-24 Maitland carnivals, ALL the motor cycle racing was called just that "motor cycle races". No mention at all of the word "speedway". We now use the word "speedway" to refer to both the sport and the venue where the racing takes place. A change occurred in Maitland with the publicity for the first carnival of the 1924-25 season staged at the Maitland Show Ground. In late 1924 the word "speedway" was first used, not in reference to the racing, but to the venue. The Maitland Show Ground started to be referred to as the "Maitland Speedway" in the newspapers. During my research of the motor cycle racing that season I also found the term used to describe other venues - Maitland Super Speedway (the racecourse at Maitland), Tamworth Speedway, Dungog Speedway, Cessnock Speedway, Penrith Speedway, ....... The advent of the internet has changed our society. There are a proliferation of websites dealing with just about everything imaginable, including speedway history. What some ill-informed people have written on some of these websites in the name of "speedway history" is appalling. The average reader of this material wouldn't have carried out any speedway research so they think what they are reading is fact. That is how speedway myths start. The worst internet speedway history article I had to correct takes the cake - and it concerns both Johnnie and Ian Hoskins. Somebody wrote on a speedway website that when Johnnie Hoskins set sail for England from West Australia in 1928 he left his son Ian in charge of the Claremont Speedway operation. What's wrong with that you may ask? What's wrong is that Ian would have been about 4 or 5 years old at the time. The material which appears in speedway books, speedway magazines and on speedway websites is only as good as the knowledge and research ethic of the people writing it. Should anyone have a question concerning anything I have written on this forum, I will answer it if I can. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
olddon 7 Posted November 1, 2011 Jimmy Wales, the founder of wikipedia, has just been interviewed on Al Jazeera TV. He didn't mention anything about the rewriting of speedway history though. JACK KEEN, ERITH, KENT Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nigel 38 Posted November 1, 2011 (edited) I would have expected something different in your reply to my Post rather than something hinting at a personal attack on me. You know very well that I am not a moderator of the BSF or any other site for that matter. I am just a speedway follower. I thought your comment "Only those who are serious about this topic need bother to participate please" was marginalising those who you wanted to comment on your message. I just wanted to clarify that this was an open forum where all who wanted to could debate their views and not be given guidelines. It would seem in your view that I have not contributed anything useful to the Johnnie Hoskins/Maitland debate. For my part, I am not a speedway historian rather am I a keen supporter of the sport who has gained some knowledge of its history via the several history forums that are around and reading magazines like 'Speedway Star', 'Backtrack" and 'Classic Speedway". I think the posters on this thread have already pointed out my lack of knowledge about the Australian scene in the early 1920s. From these I have learned something useful. That's why I participate on these groups - to add to my limited knowledge of speedway's origins, then decide how I view that against what I have previously found out. Sadly, too, because I tried to make a parallel between my belief in Johnnie Hoskins role at Maitland in 1923 with a similar belief in the Old Testament, I have been branded something of a 'religious nutter.' I am certainly not that but will not detail my religious beliefs for further sarcastic and sad comments like 'God wasn't in Sainsbury's' as one poster has done. That is sad and disrespectful - not to me but to those who may have more devoted religious convictions. Your message comments, as are those of the many other Posters on this thread, have been taken onboard by me and while I may or may not agree with them, I do value them and when needed will add my response to them - they may or may not be correct in the opinion of others but in this world where there is still a modicum of free speech I will continue to express them. JACK KEEN, ERITH, KENT Jack, My unreserved apologies for belittling your religious beliefs and my apologies to all viewing this thread who subscribe to the same faith and felt offended. All was meant in Jest. In hindsight a mistake., but it was you Jack who made the references to religion in your post, perhaps not the wisest thing to do. Nigel Edited November 1, 2011 by Nigel Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
olddon 7 Posted November 1, 2011 Jack, My unreserved apologies for belittling your religious beliefs and my apologies to all viewing this thread who subscribe to the same faith and felt offended. All was meant in Jest. In hindsight a mistake., but it was you Jack who made the references to religion in your post, perhaps not the wisest thing to do. Nigel No offence taken Nigel. it was wrong of me to try and contrive a link between speedway and religion Thank you. JACK KEEN, ERITH, KENT Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BigFatDave 258 Posted November 1, 2011 No offence taken Nigel. it was wrong of me to try and contrive a link between speedway and religion Thank you. JACK KEEN, ERITH, KENT Goodonya, olddon, for having the intestinal fortitude to apologise when in the wrong - an example a few others on here would do well to take note of, particularly the person who first introduced religion into the argument, and later assumed omnipotent status by re-writing Wikipedia in his own image. As for me, I'll stick by my beliefs: Maitland was a watershed in our sport, and Johnnie Hoskins is the Godfather of Speedway as we know it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nigel 38 Posted November 1, 2011 Jack, with friends like BFD you dont need enemies Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BigFatDave 258 Posted November 1, 2011 (edited) Jack, with friends like BFD you dont need enemies Nigel, I see you’ve set aside this special time to humiliate yourself in public; I don’t know what your problem is, but I’ll bet it’s hard to pronounce. I will always cherish the initial misconceptions I had about you, but I like you: you remind me of when I was young and stupid; with every post you're validating my inherent mistrust of strangers and I’m already visualizing the duct tape over your mouth. Any connection between your reality and mine is purely coincidental, although you may be right in some things: for instance, I am an agent of Satan, but my duties these days are largely ceremonial and my powers can only be used for good. I'll tell you what, in future I’ll try being nicer, if you’ll try being smarter. Edited November 1, 2011 by BigFatDave Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ross Garrigan 2 Posted November 2, 2011 Goodonya, olddon, for having the intestinal fortitude to apologise when in the wrong - an example a few others on here would do well to take note of, particularly the person who first introduced religion into the argument, and later assumed omnipotent status by re-writing Wikipedia in his own image. As for me, I'll stick by my beliefs: Maitland was a watershed in our sport, and Johnnie Hoskins is the Godfather of Speedway as we know it. Dave, if you have read what I posted re Maitland, you would know that you won't get any argument from me when you wrote "Maitland was a watershed in our sport". As for referring to Johnnie Hoskins as the "Godfather of Speedway", that is your right. One question Dave, do you believe speedway was invented at Maitland by Johnnie Hoskins on December 15, 1923? As for Wikipedia, I could go into just about any Wikipedia entry I wanted to right now and alter the wording, or even start a new entry, whether I was an expert on the topic or not. I am an "oldie" and I remember the days when if I wanted information I had to go to a tome of a printed encyclopaedia to get it. Those who wrote the entries in encyclopaedias in those days were people qualified in the various fields to do so. Dave, do you think all people who contribute to the pages of Wikipedia would have the qualifications of those back in the days I have been referring to? I can assure you that even in the field of speedway history there is a lot of rubbish appearing on Wikipedia. About two years ago I was asked if I would help to correct some of those very entries in Wikipedia. I had to decline as I wouldn't have been able to spare the time necessary to do so. What appears on Wikipedia is not always representative of "history". The documentation of "history" is by definition the documentation of what actually happened. If there was such a computer program as a "history check" available to be applied to Wikipedia entries as there is a "spell check" on our computers, an awful lot of material would be deleted from Wikipedia in one overall application. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BigFatDave 258 Posted November 2, 2011 Dave, if you have read what I posted re Maitland, you would know that you won't get any argument from me when you wrote "Maitland was a watershed in our sport". As for referring to Johnnie Hoskins as the "Godfather of Speedway", that is your right. One question Dave, do you believe speedway was invented at Maitland by Johnnie Hoskins on December 15, 1923? Never have, Ross: I believe 'Speedway' had been evolving since the invention of the Motorcycle; Maitland was where it started getting it's act together, and Hoskins was the major catalyst in Speedway as we know it today coming together; by this and his subsequent actions he could however very easily be dubbed the 'Inventor' of Modern Speedway. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ross Garrigan 2 Posted November 2, 2011 Never have, Ross: I believe 'Speedway' had been evolving since the invention of the Motorcycle; Maitland was where it started getting it's act together, and Hoskins was the major catalyst in Speedway as we know it today coming together; by this and his subsequent actions he could however very easily be dubbed the 'Inventor' of Modern Speedway. Thanks for the response Dave. I don't know if this thread has run its course or not, but the number of postings has dropped. I'll keep looking here for a few days yet. I spend very little time on this Forum and only visit a few times a year or when I'm told a topic which interests me has appeared. Ross. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
norbold 7,108 Posted November 2, 2011 assumed omnipotent status by re-writing Wikipedia in his own image. Just one question, Dave, how do you think Wikipedia gets written? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nigel 38 Posted November 2, 2011 (edited) Nigel, I see you’ve set aside this special time to humiliate yourself in public; I don’t know what your problem is, but I’ll bet it’s hard to pronounce. I will always cherish the initial misconceptions I had about you, but I like you: you remind me of when I was young and stupid; with every post you're validating my inherent mistrust of strangers and I’m already visualizing the duct tape over your mouth. Any connection between your reality and mine is purely coincidental, although you may be right in some things: for instance, I am an agent of Satan, but my duties these days are largely ceremonial and my powers can only be used for good. I'll tell you what, in future I’ll try being nicer, if you’ll try being smarter. Nice try Dave ...but the red herrings aren't biting Edit:- I must add that the only time I humiliate myself is in private and Miss Whiplash makes me pay for the privelage. Edited November 2, 2011 by Nigel Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lucifer sam 3,953 Posted November 2, 2011 As for me, I'll stick by my beliefs: Maitland was a watershed in our sport, and Johnnie Hoskins is the Godfather of Speedway as we know it. Actually I doubt if anyone disagrees much with either of those statements. I think the disagreements centre on whether West Maitland on December 15th 1923 was the actual, definite, very first meeting, or has any more right to be called the first meeting that the other meetings that came before it. The answer to that is probably a "no". And also to whether Johnnie S Hoskins "invented" speedway. Again probably a "no". But there's no doubt he had a massive influence on how speedway was shaped and how it is still today. Therefore "Godfather Of Speedway", very much so. In fact, since my definition of "father" is not the biological father but rather the person who brings up the infant and moulds them, I would say Johnnie Hoskins IS The Father Of Speedway, whether he actually staged the first meeting or not. All the best Rob Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lucifer sam 3,953 Posted November 2, 2011 Just one question, Dave, how do you think Wikipedia gets written? By the magical Wikipedia pixies, of course. Or maybe it's by ten of thousands of historians and specialists of various aptitude. All the best Rob Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
