Maitland Speedway Anniversary

[norbold 7,098]

I've refrained from looking at this thread for some time - in fact I've refrained from looking at the BSF for some time as it has descended into the pits (no pun intended).

 

Olddon says "No matter how much Ross Garrigan, Norman Jacobs, Cyclone and others in the clan attempt on the BSF to decry the evidence provided in support of Johnnie Hoskins and the start of speedway at Maitland in December 1923, support for that theory is always provided in a convincing way." What convincing way is that? The proponents of the "Hoskins Did It" theory have still not yet quoted one contemporary source to back up their views. Ross, Cyclone, Kevin and I have asked repeatedly for them to do this and all we get is some link to a modern web site or quote from a written modern source. I suggest to BFD, olddon and kennylane that they actually go to Australia and look through the newspapers in the archives, or failing that go to Colindale and look through contemporary sources in the Newspaper Library. That's what historical research is all about, going back to the source. Ross has provided incontrovertible evidence on here that the meeting at Maitland in December 1923 was not the first of its kind, nor was it even thought to be at the time. That's the reality of this whole discussion.

 

OK, that was my last contribution to not only this debate but this forum as I'm finished with the BSF for good now because I know the only response from the Big Fat Tractor Driver will be to hurl personal abuse at me without trying to show any evidence of his views while olddon and kennylane will give more links to modern web sites. I have operated all my life under strict research conditions where arguments are supported by real facts and sources. There are disagreements over interpretation of course but never once have I found it descend to the level of personal abuse so beloved of Dave Puxley nor the idea that a link to a web site - or even worse, a plaque, can overturn years of real research.

 

I always thought there were supposed to be rules on this Forum about attacking the post and not the poster. Obviously I was wrong if BFD is still here.

 

I find it very sad to have to say I've finished with the BSF as I was one of the first members on the original site over 10 years ago. But it's just become a joke now. The idea of real historical research is now frowned on and those who practice it subject to personal abuse.

 

It was nice knowing you, Phil, but it's goodbye now.

[kennylane 3]

I've refrained from looking at this thread for some time - in fact I've refrained from looking at the BSF for some time as it has descended into the pits (no pun intended).

 

Olddon says "No matter how much Ross Garrigan, Norman Jacobs, Cyclone and others in the clan attempt on the BSF to decry the evidence provided in support of Johnnie Hoskins and the start of speedway at Maitland in December 1923, support for that theory is always provided in a convincing way." What convincing way is that? The proponents of the "Hoskins Did It" theory have still not yet quoted one contemporary source to back up their views. Ross, Cyclone, Kevin and I have asked repeatedly for them to do this and all we get is some link to a modern web site or quote from a written modern source. I suggest to BFD, olddon and kennylane that they actually go to Australia and look through the newspapers in the archives, or failing that go to Colindale and look through contemporary sources in the Newspaper Library. That's what historical research is all about, going back to the source. Ross has provided incontrovertible evidence on here that the meeting at Maitland in December 1923 was not the first of its kind, nor was it even thought to be at the time. That's the reality of this whole discussion.

 

OK, that was my last contribution to not only this debate but this forum as I'm finished with the BSF for good now because I know the only response from the Big Fat Tractor Driver will be to hurl personal abuse at me without trying to show any evidence of his views while olddon and kennylane will give more links to modern web sites. I have operated all my life under strict research conditions where arguments are supported by real facts and sources. There are disagreements over interpretation of course but never once have I found it descend to the level of personal abuse so beloved of Dave Puxley nor the idea that a link to a web site - or even worse, a plaque, can overturn years of real research.

 

I always thought there were supposed to be rules on this Forum about attacking the post and not the poster. Obviously I was wrong if BFD is still here.

 

I find it very sad to have to say I've finished with the BSF as I was one of the first members on the original site over 10 years ago. But it's just become a joke now. The idea of real historical research is now frowned on and those who practice it subject to personal abuse.

 

It was nice knowing you, Phil, but it's goodbye now.

 

It's a shame you have taken that attitude but it's a free world. It means you will now probably never see this item on Brian Darby's excellent Australian speedway site. For those interested - oh, dear another website link - all will be revealed at:

http://speedwayarchives.homestead.com/

SCROLL DOWN TO SEE THIS PHOTO AND CAPTION:

Bill Crampton - the man who won the first ever Speedway race at West Maitland Showgrounds in December 1923.

Edited April 6, 2012 by kennylane

[Ross Garrigan 2]

For those who have not yet - are there any ? - read the comments about Johnnie Hoskins on the South African site which I linked. here's an edited clip of it:

"Johnny S. Hoskins

The history of speedway began in Australia, when the godfather of the sport, Johnny S. Hoskins, organised the first motorcycle races on a dirt oval track at West Maitland, near Sydney, in December 1923. This event has generally been accepted as the very first speedway meeting, even though it’s a proven fact, that the Americans had pioneered motorcycle races on oval tracks as early as in 1902."

JACK KEEN,

ERITH, KENT

 

Jack, you are citing what was written by Christian Weber about 10 years ago as proof of your belief that Johnnie Hoskins invented speedway at Maitland on December 15, 1923. Have you contacted Christian and asked him if that is still his belief? If not, have you considered he may now think differently?

 

Jack, I wouldn't use what you quote from the South African site as "proof" because I know Christian no longer holds that view he expressed about a decade ago.

 

I have given my source of reference for all I have said on here about Hoskins/Maitland. If you are going to use what appears on a website or in a book or magazine as proof of your argument Jack, you should first do some checking. Check how old the information is and check with the person who wrote it just what his source of reference was. Remember the old Guinness Book of Records we discussed.

 

As for what appears in the New Zealand GP programme, the people commenting must have a source of reference. I would be interested to know what those sources are.

[Ross Garrigan 2]

It's a shame you have taken that attitude but it's a free world. It means you will now probably never see this item on Brian Darby's excellent Australian speedway site. For those interested - oh, dear another website link - all will be revealed at:

http://speedwayarchives.homestead.com/

SCROLL DOWN TO SEE THIS PHOTO AND CAPTION:

Bill Crampton - the man who won the first ever Speedway race at West Maitland Showgrounds in December 1923.

 

When Bill Crampton wheeled his motor cycle out onto the Maitland track for his first race on December 15, 1923, he was only doing what he had done many times before - lining up to participate in a race for motor cycles on a showground/sports ground track as part of a sports carnival. What's more, he was about to race on grass. I know he had participated in this sort of event many times elsewhere because I have the carnival reports and results.

 

I ask again, what was it that Bill Crampton and a number of other competitors did at Maitland on December 15, 1923, that they hadn't done previously elsewhere?

 

As for the citing of Brian Darby's website as proof that Hoskins started/invented speedway at Maitland on December 15, 1923, I have emailed Brian and asked him his source of reference for implying speedway started on that occasion. I also asked him if he subscribes to the belief Hoskins started/invented speedway. I am hopeful of a response from him.

 

I have already mentioned that it wasn't Hoskins who "staged" the motor cycle racing which took place on the Maitland Showground on December 15, 1923. As proof, I submit this extract from a Hunter Valley newspaper dated 11/12/1923, the week leading up to the said carnival. The "club" referred to is the Hamilton Motor Cycle Club: -

 

"On Saturday next, the club will hold motor cycle races, in conjunction with other sports, under the electric light on the Maitland Showground in aid of the Maitland Orphanage and H.R.A. and H. Association. The races are open to all members of recognised motor cycle clubs.."

 

That item appeared in the newspaper column of the Hamilton Motor Cycle Club. Then followed the list of club officials who would conduct the racing.

Edited April 7, 2012 by Ross Garrigan

[Jim Blanchard 19]

The South African website without doubt is a fine new source of reference in regard to Maitland in December 1923, and also on how Johnnie Hoskins was at the forefront when REAL speedway - not the High Beech shambles in the February - was brought to England in 1928.

It will take more time, perseverance and research on the part of the pro-Hoskins group to finally prove their point. But recent information and supportive writings show that the Johnnie Hoskins at Maitland in December 1923 cause is now winning the recognition that it deserves.

JACK KEEN,

ERITH, KENT

 

This was posted on the Speedway History Forum yesterday afternoon:

 

"""Hello friends,

 

this is Christian Weber aka Kirk.

 

Indeed, I feel a little bit embarressed, but please let me explain.

 

I wrote this history of South African Speedway nearly ten years ago. I didn't know then what I know now about the origins of Speedway. Hands up any of You who knew then that the Hoskins / Maitland story about the invention of speedway was just a myth.

 

I didn't know it, I admit that. All the reference works I read up to that time repeated the Hoskins' creation of speedway myth. Ten years on, I know that no-one has "invented" speedway, that the sport has evolved, and that it does not have a "Godfather".

 

At the time (2003) I believed in what I read about the birth of speedway, and really had no cause to doubt it.

 

Now, not least thanks to what I read on forums like this one, and thanks to the precious work of people like Ross Garrigan, whom I admire very much, I know better.

 

Let me tell You that by now I had already nearly forgotten what I wrote about the origins of the sport in that "75 years of speedway in SA". It was only a prelude to the main part, the South African Speedway history.

By the way, the work was never completed, You will notice that it stops with 1979. After that the SSRC newsletter was no longer published, and I did not continue with writing on that story. """

[olddon 7]

This was posted on the Speedway History Forum yesterday afternoon:

 

"""Hello friends,

 

this is Christian Weber aka Kirk.

 

Indeed, I feel a little bit embarressed, but please let me explain.

 

I wrote this history of South African Speedway nearly ten years ago. I didn't know then what I know now about the origins of Speedway. Hands up any of You who knew then that the Hoskins / Maitland story about the invention of speedway was just a myth.

 

I didn't know it, I admit that. All the reference works I read up to that time repeated the Hoskins' creation of speedway myth. Ten years on, I know that no-one has "invented" speedway, that the sport has evolved, and that it does not have a "Godfather".

 

At the time (2003) I believed in what I read about the birth of speedway, and really had no cause to doubt it.

 

Now, not least thanks to what I read on forums like this one, and thanks to the precious work of people like Ross Garrigan, whom I admire very much, I know better.

 

Let me tell You that by now I had already nearly forgotten what I wrote about the origins of the sport in that "75 years of speedway in SA". It was only a prelude to the main part, the South African Speedway history.

By the way, the work was never completed, You will notice that it stops with 1979. After that the SSRC newsletter was no longer published, and I did not continue with writing on that story. """

 

Jim Blanchard's Post is noted. I dare not say more in case I get a ban!

JACK KEEN,

ERITH, KENT

[iris123 20,935]

Christian Weber is a member of this forum.Maybe he will contribute.But it does once again seem to blow a link up in someones face.No doubt there will be more dragged up from cyberspace or books fromthe 70s or 80s

[cyclone 943]

Jim Blanchard's Post is noted. I dare not say more in case I get a ban!

JACK KEEN,

ERITH, KENT

 

No disgrace in acknowledging that you were unaware that Christian Weber had revised his view, based on contemporary evidence that was unearthed later.

 

Christian's statement:-

 

"I didn't know it, I admit that. All the reference works I read up to that time repeated the Hoskins' creation of speedway myth. Ten years on, I know that no-one has "invented" speedway, that the sport has evolved, and that it does not have a "Godfather".

 

imo recognises the assiduous factual research carried out by others, particularly Ross Garrigan, & Norman Jacobs.

 

No one is belittling Johnny Hoskins significant contribution to Speedway, but it would be disingenuous to continue to credit him with something that has now conclusively been shown not to be the case.

[Ross Garrigan 2]

It's a shame you have taken that attitude but it's a free world. It means you will now probably never see this item on Brian Darby's excellent Australian speedway site. For those interested - oh, dear another website link - all will be revealed at:

http://speedwayarchives.homestead.com/

SCROLL DOWN TO SEE THIS PHOTO AND CAPTION:

Bill Crampton - the man who won the first ever Speedway race at West Maitland Showgrounds in December 1923.

 

I have asked Brian Darby if he believes that Johnnie Hoskins started/invented speedway at Maitland on December 15, 1923 and he replied that he does not. He is also surprised to learn that someone has seized upon something he wrote in a photo caption on one of his websites as proof that Hoskins had done just that.

 

I will admit that what "kennylane" has highlighted in red in his above-mentioned post can be interpreted in different ways and I mentioned that to Brian. The point here is that what appears on the website link was not written to suggest Johnnie Hoskins started/invented speedway at Maitland in December 1923 and so should not be cited as proof that he did.

 

Christian Weber is a member of this forum.Maybe he will contribute.But it does once again seem to blow a link up in someones face.No doubt there will be more dragged up from cyberspace or books fromthe 70s or 80s

 

I posted the below on the Speedway History Forum yesterday in response to Christian's posting there concerning his 10-year-old mention of Hoskins/Maitland which had been submitted by one party on this Forum as proof Hoskins had started/invented speedway at Maitland in December 1923: -

 

I grew up thinking Johnnie Hoskins had invented speedway at Maitland in December 1923. For all but the last decade plus of my adult life I believed Johnnie Hoskins had invented speedway at Maitland in Decemebr 1923. Why shouldn't I have believed that, it had been written for decades - it was speedway lore.

 

I have owned up to even writing years ago that Hoskins invented speedway at Maitland in December 1923. There was nobody saying he didn't. Now knowing the truth, I feel as if I had been 'cheated' all those years.

 

I have spent about a decade trying to convince others that the Hoskins/Maitland business is incorrect.

 

I fully understand what Christian writes in his posting. I feel embarrassed about what I wrote all those years ago too. I have been trying to make amends for that.

[oldace 1,678]

 

Bill Crampton - the man who won the first ever Speedway race at West Maitland Showgrounds in December 1923.

 

Or you could substitute it for this

 

Tommy Knudsen - the man who won the first ever Speedway race at Wembley Stadium in September 1981.

 

Both true, you have merely read into the statement incorrectly

[Phil 303]

Due to the some attacks on other posters this topic is being locked for the time being.

[olddon 7]

http://www.vintagesp.../Maitland3.html

This is part of what Johnnie Hoskins writes in the article. Click on the link to read it in full.

“I arrived at West Maitland in the afternoon, called a sleepy cabit at the exit and with an assumed cofidence asked to be taken to a moderately good hotel.

“And here the fans took a hand.Jogging along clippety clop in the cab behind an aged nag I spotted on the pavement two old friends, Percy Weedon and his partner from Darwin.

“They paid the cabby, introduced me to the hotel proprietor and welcomed me like a long lost brother. They owned the local picture show. Soon I was running a big charity sports programme, boxingm street stalls, the lot, and made a huge success of it.

“Next came a vacant secrtearyship for the local Show grounds and Annual Agricultural Show.

“I bough a motor cycle and proposed motor cycle sports on the Show ground.

“The idea was turned down flat by the Committee, but I persevered. As a last chance I risked my job by getting some twenty or more of the lads on their motor bikes to meet me for a spin one Sunday morning on the Show Ground trotting track which was used at the Annual Show.

“The noise brought Committee men out of their beds and soon a crowd assembled. I raced with the lads once and once only. They went past me on my pre First War Triumph so fast, so dangerously close, I vowed never again. That is one vow I’ve kept.

CARNIVAL

In mid-summer of 1923 the first “Electric Light Carnival” featuring “dancing on the green and motor cycle racing was staged before a huge crowd.

Soon we changed the name to “Speedway” and ran weekly.

JACK KEEN,

ERITH, KENT

Edited April 8, 2012 by olddon

[raceleader 2]

http://www.vintagesp.../Maitland3.html

This is part of what Johnnie Hoskins writes in the article. Click on the link to read it in full.

“I arrived at West Maitland in the afternoon, called a sleepy cabit at the exit and with an assumed cofidence asked to be taken to a moderately good hotel.

“And here the fans took a hand.Jogging along clippety clop in the cab behind an aged nag I spotted on the pavement two old friends, Percy Weedon and his partner from Darwin.

“They paid the cabby, introduced me to the hotel proprietor and welcomed me like a long lost brother. They owned the local picture show. Soon I was running a big charity sports programme, boxingm street stalls, the lot, and made a huge success of it.

“Next came a vacant secrtearyship for the local Show grounds and Annual Agricultural Show.

“I bough a motor cycle and proposed motor cycle sports on the Show ground.

“The idea was turned down flat by the Committee, but I persevered. As a last chance I risked my job by getting some twenty or more of the lads on their motor bikes to meet me for a spin one Sunday morning on the Show Ground trotting track which was used at the Annual Show.

“The noise brought Committee men out of their beds and soon a crowd assembled. I raced with the lads once and once only. They went past me on my pre First War Triumph so fast, so dangerously close, I vowed never again. That is one vow I’ve kept.

CARNIVAL

In mid-summer of 1923 the first “Electric Light Carnival” featuring “dancing on the green and motor cycle racing was staged before a huge crowd.

Soon we changed the name to “Speedway” and ran weekly.

JACK KEEN,

ERITH, KENT

 

Not for the first time I am confused by what the poster strives for and also by reading the article by Johnnie Hoskins. What confused me was references to mid summer as I aligned that to mean around July and August rather than the first meeting at West Maitland in December 1923. Then it clicked home that Johnnie's mention of summer was in regard to the season in Australia which coincides with our winter, so I now can see he did mean the months we regard as winter which makes December mid-summer in Australia. I also see the poster grabbed on just one line as his focal point - Hoskins claim to the use of the word speedway. But overall it was a nice entertaining writing by Johnnie, which looks as though it may have been originally used in a Long Eaton programme at some time.

[TigerTom 0]

If my memory serves me correctly it appeared in the yearly speedway handbook in the sixties.

 

Tiger Tom

[kennylane 3]

http://www.vintagesp.../Maitland3.html

This is part of what Johnnie Hoskins writes in the article. Click on the link to read it in full.

“I arrived at West Maitland in the afternoon, called a sleepy cabit at the exit and with an assumed cofidence asked to be taken to a moderately good hotel.

“And here the fans took a hand.Jogging along clippety clop in the cab behind an aged nag I spotted on the pavement two old friends, Percy Weedon and his partner from Darwin.

“They paid the cabby, introduced me to the hotel proprietor and welcomed me like a long lost brother. They owned the local picture show. Soon I was running a big charity sports programme, boxingm street stalls, the lot, and made a huge success of it.

“Next came a vacant secrtearyship for the local Show grounds and Annual Agricultural Show.

“I bough a motor cycle and proposed motor cycle sports on the Show ground.

“The idea was turned down flat by the Committee, but I persevered. As a last chance I risked my job by getting some twenty or more of the lads on their motor bikes to meet me for a spin one Sunday morning on the Show Ground trotting track which was used at the Annual Show.

“The noise brought Committee men out of their beds and soon a crowd assembled. I raced with the lads once and once only. They went past me on my pre First War Triumph so fast, so dangerously close, I vowed never again. That is one vow I’ve kept.

CARNIVAL

In mid-summer of 1923 the first “Electric Light Carnival” featuring “dancing on the green and motor cycle racing was staged before a huge crowd.

Soon we changed the name to “Speedway” and ran weekly.

JACK KEEN,

ERITH, KENT

 

How nice to read Johnnie Hoskins memories of Maitland in December 1923. And we have the confidence of knowing that he was also actually there. It's what they term a primary source of reference on a subject.

Edited April 12, 2012 by kennylane