E I Addio 15,843 Posted August 20, 2013 I found these programme notes of Len Silvers on the Hackney website. They were originally published in the Hackney programme of 29th March 1968-- more than 45 years ago and they are as true now as they were then about using guests on a horses for courses basis. 45 years on and the same old practice is allowed to continue on an ever increasing scale increasingly spoiling the league as a competition with any merit .Am I the only one that gets annoyed by this practice of horses for courses guests that IMO borders on cheating ? 45 years and still nothing done about it.:- Len Silver Talking 29th March 1968 When, oh when, are the wise men that control our sport going to realise that "guest" riders are undesirable? Last week I disagreed with Wolves’ use of Malcolm Simmons, and tonight I disagree with Glasgow’s use of Olle Nygren. Of course, it must be admitted that the arguments in favour of the use of "guests" is very powerful indeed, BUT, surely it must be wrong for a team to be allowed to use a "horses for courses" policy? And what about the ludicrous situation that developed last week when Wolves' boss Bill Bridgett was allowed a guest for Airey because of a financial dispute, while we were not even allowed the use of the "Rider Replacement" scheme in the enforced absence of our third heat leader Des Lukehurst because his illness was not of long enough duration? I can tell you all, that right or wrong, win, lose or draw, the Hawks will not use guests unless the regulations clearly show no possibility of dispute, and no possibility of gaining unfair advantage by their use. When we win the League battle it will be because OUR team is the best. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rob tatum 175 Posted August 20, 2013 Detest the use of guests always have always will. More than anything it makes our sport a laughing stock and amateurish. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikebv 10,240 Posted August 20, 2013 Detest the use of guests always have always will. More than anything it makes our sport a laughing stock and amateurish. Stand back and await the 'there is no alternative' brigades wrath... Imagine if swindon and poole make the play off final and poole win.. Troy Batchelor gets his losers medal, looks suitably solemn for a moment before joining the back of the poole team to collect a winners one for his 'services' to their successful season and joins in the poole team celebrations.... Be ridiculous wouldnt it? Yet who could disagree that he would deserve a medal as without his contribution they wouldnt have been there? Ah but this is speedway.... 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
orion 7,610 Posted August 20, 2013 People may not like guests and there by no way ideal but I guess that the fact that after 40 odd years we still used them no one has come up with a better idea . Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Phil The Ace 2,853 Posted August 21, 2013 Have no guest and have R/R for missing riders Keep it as 1 above an all riders below but make it so you can use any of the qualified riders as many times as u want So say if Zagar is injured and we have R\R instead of a guest everyone can take a ride. But we can use maybe cook 3 times and zorro once or visa Versa or any rider who's riding well that night. The rider can still only have 7 rides per meeting though. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikebv 10,240 Posted August 21, 2013 (edited) Have no guest and have R/R for missing riders Keep it as 1 above an all riders below but make it so you can use any of the qualified riders as many times as u want So say if Zagar is injured and we have R\R instead of a guest everyone can take a ride. But we can use maybe cook 3 times and zorro once or visa Versa or any rider who's riding well that night. The rider can still only have 7 rides per meeting though. Good call.. As it stands now the reason why we have guests for a 'No1' is that it is considered that the team without one is at such a massive disadvantage that the meeting wouldnt be competitive, however the rules of speedway themselves contradict this notion as if the 'No1' gets injured in heat one then only reserves can take his place.... Link your idea with setting a team strength average that doesnt mean the 'No1' is disproportionately over 20% of the teams total, then it would work.. For the bottom end of the team, DU's could be used as now, and running six man teams would mean more 4 - 6 point men would be on the market to replace those calibre of riders (who make up the majority of the teams) when they are injured/missing.. IF there was a will to remove this facility, which does, no matter what anyone says, destroy league speedway's credibility, then it could be done..... Edited August 21, 2013 by mikebv Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mr Ore 204 Posted August 21, 2013 Detest the use of guests always have always will. More than anything it makes our sport a laughing stock and amateurish. Don't you just love the front covers of Speedway Star at the end of the season showing the victorious league championship and/or cup winning teams? It is a total embarrassment to see guests for the night wearing winner’s medals and waving their fists in victory celebrations. Been the same for far too many years but it still happens. Nothing against the guy as he needs to ride to pay his bills, but it seemed Jason Bunyan was in every winning team photo a couple of years ago. There is no way guests can be justified but at least when it comes to photos common sense could be used by just having contracted riders of the actual team; including injured riders who somehow seem to be left out of such things, and not someone who has been a ringer for the night. Maybe Zielona Gora could take over a British team as the Mickey Mouse race jackets would look more in place here. On a lighter note the fish at Rye House last Saturday was much improved from earlier in the season and cooked from fresh too. My compliments to all concerned. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ch958 2,393 Posted August 21, 2013 Good call.. As it stands now the reason why we have guests for a 'No1' is that it is considered that the team without one is at such a massive disadvantage that the meeting wouldnt be competitive, however the rules of speedway themselves contradict this notion as if the 'No1' gets injured in heat one then only reserves can take his place.... Link your idea with setting a team strength average that doesnt mean the 'No1' is disproportionately over 20% of the teams total, then it would work.. For the bottom end of the team, DU's could be used as now, and running six man teams would mean more 4 - 6 point men would be on the market to replace those calibre of riders (who make up the majority of the teams) when they are injured/missing.. IF there was a will to remove this facility, which does, no matter what anyone says, destroy league speedway's credibility, then it could be done..... two excellent calls though i would restrict to 2 r/r rides myself even teams being defeated heavily is better than the farce of guests and lets be honest thats the worst that could ever happen without guests and that happens with them too!! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
frigbo 518 Posted August 21, 2013 Guests are undoubtedly my single biggest 'bugbear' with Speedway. R/R, although not ideal is a far better option as it means teams utilise their own side. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
orion 7,610 Posted August 21, 2013 two excellent calls though i would restrict to 2 r/r rides myself even teams being defeated heavily is better than the farce of guests and lets be honest thats the worst that could ever happen without guests and that happens with them too!! And what happens when a star number one is missing ? you used rr and the crowd drops and people lose money or there are two or 3 riders missing ? ...as i said i don't like guests but in till there is better idea i guest they are here to stay Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
E I Addio 15,843 Posted August 21, 2013 And what happens when a star number one is missing ? you used rr and the crowd drops and people lose money or there are two or 3 riders missing ? ...as i said i don't like guests but in till there is better idea i guest they are here to stay The issue raised by Len Silver 45 years ago, is not guests as such, but it is teams who get guests that are much better better on a particular track than the rider they replace. Poole recent win at Eastbourne is an example of guests making a team stronger, which in devalues the league as a competition IMO. It seems to me that when guests replace a rider in an away meeting the guest should be on the basis of the away average of the rider they replace not the overall average. If a rider has an average of say 8 at home and 6 away giving an overall average of 7, his guest replacement should be a 6 point rider not a 7 point rider. If there is to be any disadvantage as result of a guest then that disadvantage should work against the team with a a rider missing, not favour them as the present system often does. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Woz01 3,589 Posted August 21, 2013 A simple squad system would help reduce guests. 10 riders in a squad pick 7 riders who are available for the fixture and use a riders starting average to make up to the limit. Sometimes a team may be weaker but at least its riders contracted to that particular club. Riders can still ride PL if they choose to. May need R/R occasionally but guests would be rare! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fourentee 987 Posted August 21, 2013 till there is better idea i guest they are here to stay I see what you did there. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
orion 7,610 Posted August 21, 2013 The issue raised by Len Silver 45 years ago, is not guests as such, but it is teams who get guests that are much better better on a particular track than the rider they replace. Poole recent win at Eastbourne is an example of guests making a team stronger, which in devalues the league as a competition IMO. It seems to me that when guests replace a rider in an away meeting the guest should be on the basis of the away average of the rider they replace not the overall average. If a rider has an average of say 8 at home and 6 away giving an overall average of 7, his guest replacement should be a 6 point rider not a 7 point rider. If there is to be any disadvantage as result of a guest then that disadvantage should work against the team with a a rider missing, not favour them as the present system often does. Yea i see your point .must agree that tends to be a loophole that has never been stopped Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vincent Blachshadow 2,924 Posted August 21, 2013 (edited) Yea i see your point .must agree that tends to be a loophole that has never been stopped That's because they don't want to stop it. It even allows the situation where a previously injured rider, ready to come back into the team, is told to 'take another match off' to allow a track-specialist to be utilised at an away track in his place. Edited August 21, 2013 by Vincent Blackshadow Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
