Guest Riders --- 45 Years On.

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The issue raised by Len Silver 45 years ago, is not guests as such, but it is teams who get guests that are much better better on a particular track than the rider they replace. Poole recent win at Eastbourne is an example of guests making a team stronger, which in devalues the league as a competition IMO.

 

It seems to me that when guests replace a rider in an away meeting the guest should be on the basis of the away average of the rider they replace not the overall average. If a rider has an average of say 8 at home and 6 away giving an overall average of 7, his guest replacement should be a 6 point rider not a 7 point rider. If there is to be any disadvantage as result of a guest then that disadvantage should work against the team with a a rider missing, not favour them as the present system often does.

Good idea. They tried it in 2001 and it failed. Numerous teams had illegal guests as promoters/managers were clearly a bit thick. Also, some riders could have 6 averages, PL home, PL away, PL overall, EL home, EL away and EL over all. Can you imagine the green sheets?

 

It comes down to fair and simple. You have this and people get confused and complain the sport is too confusing and their mate Bob whos been going since 1959 won't go any more. Meanwhile, Fred whos been going since 1952 wont go any more because a guest scored a maximum to win a meeting by 2 points at a track the rider he replaced hasn't ever scored double figures on. Damned if you do.....

[Humphrey Appleby 13,942]

It seems to me that when guests replace a rider in an away meeting the guest should be on the basis of the away average of the rider they replace not the overall average. If a rider has an average of say 8 at home and 6 away giving an overall average of 7, his guest replacement should be a 6 point rider not a 7 point rider.

 

I believe that was tried a few years ago, but even if you used away averages for a guest, you could still use a rider that rode a particular track well. It just adds ever more complexity to the rulebook, and what's already an unfathomable rule to outsiders even more so.

 

I think serious consideration should be given to a handicap system for teams missing riders, although it's actually quite hard to devise a workable system with things like tactical rides to take into account.

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I think serious consideration should be given to a handicap system for teams missing riders, although it's actually quite hard to devise a workable system with things like tactical rides to take into account.

I'd just say if an 8 point man is missing and replace by a 3 point man then you've lost 5 points. The opposition will get 5 more points so a 10 point handicap, take off a point or two from the handicap to discourage the use of riders being missing and you have an 8-9 point handicap. It could be worked. The same could be done if a team decides to build a team 5 points under the limit to save a few £££.

[mikebv 10,243]

And what happens when a star number one is missing ? you used rr and the crowd drops and people lose money or there are two or 3 riders missing ? ...as i said i don't like guests but in till there is better idea i guest they are here to stay

 

your point re the missing number one? do what 'phil the ace' suggested, ie give the next two in the team his rides...

 

your point re missing two or three riders ? do what a team has already done this year and dont run the meeting!

 

'in the interests of speedway' obviously...

[orion 7,612]

your point re the missing number one? do what 'phil the ace' suggested, ie give the next two in the team his rides...

 

your point re missing two or three riders ? do what a team has already done this year and dont run the meeting!

 

'in the interests of speedway' obviously...

As i pointed out if it was Ward the crowd would way down ..you need to factor these things in when coming up with new rules .

[castrolargh 262]

And what happens when a star number one is missing ? you used rr and the crowd drops and people lose money or there are two or 3 riders missing ? ...as i said i don't like guests but in till there is better idea i guest they are here to stay

That is something a promoter would need to consider prior to building his team, ie how many likely absences and build the team accordingly. How about any team absences, bring in the no 8 and bump everyone up a place in the team, ie 2nd heat leader becomes no1 in his absence or 1st reserve moves up to 2nd string if one is absent. I know there will always be unforseen absences, it is inevitable but if a system like this was used surely promoters would have to seriously consider whether or not to offer a team place to a rider who has a history or likelihood of missing several meetings.

[orion 7,612]

That is something a promoter would need to consider prior to building his team, ie how many likely absences and build the team accordingly. How about any team absences, bring in the no 8 and bump everyone up a place in the team, ie 2nd heat leader becomes no1 in his absence or 1st reserve moves up to 2nd string if one is absent. I know there will always be unforseen absences, it is inevitable but if a system like this was used surely promoters would have to seriously consider whether or not to offer a team place to a rider who has a history or likelihood of missing several meetings.

As what hapens if do that and a rider breaks his leg ? you can't factor that in . the bottom line is after 40 years or more some of best speedway brains have sat down many a time and can't come up with anything that is better . Also Fans don't want to rr for top riders .there is so much more that just making a rule that just get rid of guests .

[LagutaRacingFan 1,929]

Poland seem to be fine, They run squad systems and don't use this diabolical guests rule.

 

Every club should have a squad of 10 and the riders in form get picked but a team of 7 always have to fit into a certain points limit.

[E I Addio 15,843]

the bottom line is after 40 years or more some of best speedway brains have sat down many a time

 

Who were they then ?

[A ORLOV 8,628]

Who were they then ?

It is obvious, there was the tea lady and the one who pops in once a week to do the cleaning.

[E I Addio 15,843]

Good idea. They tried it in 2001 and it failed. Numerous teams had illegal guests as promoters/managers were clearly a bit thick.

 

 

I suppose you have hit on something that is at the root of a whole range of problems in the sport. Not much hope if that's the case. You have really depressed me now. :cry:

[Humphrey Appleby 13,942]

I'd just say if an 8 point man is missing and replace by a 3 point man then you've lost 5 points. The opposition will get 5 more points so a 10 point handicap, take off a point or two from the handicap to discourage the use of riders being missing and you have an 8-9 point handicap. It could be worked. The same could be done if a team decides to build a team 5 points under the limit to save a few £££.

 

The problem is how do you factor in tactical rides (or tactical subs if you reintroduced them)? A handicapped team starting 10 points behind could conceivably use a tactical ride as early as Heat 5 which wouldn't necessarily be fair. You'd need to have a way of adjusting the par score as the match went on - a sort of speedway Duckworth-Lewis method - to determine when a team was trailing by 10 points in real terms.

 

I suppose you could split the handicap points over the programmed rides of the missing rider, and where the points couldn't be split equally, allocate them to the weakest heat pairings (a bit like how you do it in golf with the stroke index). However, I suspect everyone reading this has lost the will to live by now, which demonstrates the difficulty of doing it right.

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The problem is how do you factor in tactical rides (or tactical subs if you reintroduced them)? A handicapped team starting 10 points behind could conceivably use a tactical ride as early as Heat 5 which wouldn't necessarily be fair. You'd need to have a way of adjusting the par score as the match went on - a sort of speedway Duckworth-Lewis method - to determine when a team was trailing by 10 points in real terms.

 

I suppose you could split the handicap points over the programmed rides of the missing rider, and where the points couldn't be split equally, allocate them to the weakest heat pairings (a bit like how you do it in golf with the stroke index). However, I suspect everyone reading this has lost the will to live by now, which demonstrates the difficulty of doing it right.

Reading that, you're right! I'll give this some thought as it must be possible to do so people know whats going on but works fairly.

 

I guess the handicap points could just be given out every 2nd or 3rd heat, if you get rained off the heat before you're about to get handicap points them though. No different to a rain off now after heat 10 where the away number 1 has only ridden twice but most others have ridden 3 times.

[rob tatum 175]

3 point rider ,7 point riders ,handicap system blah !blah ! Blah ! Sorry its all too complicated I would like it to be like me simple. For such a basic sport I need the knowledge of da vinci to fill out my programme these days.

[enotian 562]

No need for a handicap system to be complicated.

 

If you're missing a 9point rider, 9 point head start. (adjust in the event of a rain off if applicable)

 

Not completely fair to the team with the missing rider (re 5th ride/tacticals)but it might incentivise teams to sign a replacement and/or develop a competitive No.8.

 

Alas that's easier said than done. And on the basis that the guest facility is most likely popular with the riders I feel we're stuck with it regardless of how strange it appears in the context of a team sport.