Tactical Substitutes - Thinking 'out Of The Box'!

[mikebv 10,243]

a bit similar to what happens in cycle speedway this idea, but could work....

 

when a team goes six behind then they can choose gate positions for as long as they remain six behind...

 

wont cost anymore for the promoters and is somewhat less contrived and mickey mouse than giving a team a 'bonus' of extra points for simply being rank..

 

and it doesn't massively put the team in front at the disadvantage which 'double points'/'bring in a tac No1' does...

Edited November 1, 2013 by mikebv

[Cockney Rebel 97]

I agree with pandorum regarding tactical riders, but if double point rides are deemed necessary why not make it a double point heat, (as opposed to a double point ride), for both teams, but only the team behind can choose the heat. Then they have to take the chance that they might be successful if they choose wisely, but could be worse off if it backfires.

I would like to see any tactical ride/substitute abolished but I quite like this idea, would any team manager be brave enough to gamble, a 10-2 or a 2-10. that would get the nerves jangling.

[Team Man 32]

I don't know what was wrong with the old, "if a team is 6 or more points behind they have choice of gate positions", as Team manager I used that many a time, it does give you an edge if you concentrate on how the gates are behaving and knowing how your rider gates and rides, but nothing is foolproof.

[The White Knight 9,039]

I don't know what was wrong with the old, "if a team is 6 or more points behind they have choice of gate positions", as Team manager I used that many a time, it does give you an edge if you concentrate on how the gates are behaving and knowing how your rider gates and rides, but nothing is foolproof.

 

 

BUT we are still giving the WORST side an advantage. I'm sorry but that is as wrong as the other Fiddles going on in Speedway to keep the Meeting exciting.

 

I would have thought the Sport was exciting enough to stand on it's own - Four Riders around One Track - it doesn't get any better than that. Why introduce unnecessary Fiddling?

[Team Man 32]

 

 

BUT we are still giving the WORST side an advantage. I'm sorry but that is as wrong as the other Fiddles going on in Speedway to keep the Meeting exciting.

 

I would have thought the Sport was exciting enough to stand on it's own - Four Riders around One Track - it doesn't get any better than that. Why introduce unnecessary Fiddling?

 

Thinking like that you might just as well stop riders making changes to their bike after their first ride, I agree of dropping the Double points ride that is a terrible rule But gate positions is surely a different matter, after all a team wins a toss to choose gate positions to start a meeting, should that be abandoned as a form of fiddling.

[The White Knight 9,039]

 

Thinking like that you might just as well stop riders making changes to their bike after their first ride, I agree of dropping the Double points ride that is a terrible rule But gate positions is surely a different matter, after all a team wins a toss to choose gate positions to start a meeting, should that be abandoned as a form of fiddling.

 

 

No, it should not be abandoned. You have to decide which Team takes Gate One and Three/Two and Four in order to start the Meeting. After THAT there should be no Fiddling to try to contrive closer Results. Believe me - it IS Fiddling whether you like it or not.

[Team Man 32]

It's very difficult to decide what is fiddling and what is team management then, You would rather see a rider take his allotted rides all night and not have an in form reserve take his place then, because that is a team manager fiddling the rides to suit.

[Mike.Butler 601]

The big advantage for me the old Tac sub rule had was that there wasn't the same incentive to 'throw' a race in order to get 6 pts behind as there is now to get 10 pts behind, simply because you were potentially forfeiting 2pts to gain 4, whereas now you forfeit 2 to potentially gain 7...it's absolute crap and brings the sport into disrepute in my view.. I am sick and tired of the promoters ignoring this blatant loophole. How many times do they have to be told us fans don't want it!? i'm close to giving up tbh...the world cup being the biggest fiasco which has meant i refuse to watch them any longer..so a casual armchair fan is pandered to in preference to us who keep the sport (just) above water...FOR PETE'S SAKE _ AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

Edited November 1, 2013 by Mike.Butler

[waiheke1 4,295]

No in the old rule u could throw two to gain eight. now u could throw two to gain three. how many times does this need explaining?

[penchev 342]

Perhaps use the old tac sub rule for the k.o cup matches?

[Mike.Butler 601]

eh? old TS: the score is 25-29, instead of getting a 3-3 team deliberately lose 2-4, so score becomes 27-33, a 5-1 brings it back to 32-34, compared to a 3-3 (28-32) followed by a 3-3 (31-35) how is that gaining 8? Is it me????

[waiheke1 4,295]

Because you could replace two rubbish riders with two top riders turning a likely 1-5 into a 5-1.

care to explain how u think the new double point rules can give a 7 point gain?

[Mike.Butler 601]

i can't sorry, best i can do is: the score is 21-26 and losing team have had a rider excluded, their 2nd rider then has an 'engine failure"., score goes to 21-31...forfeiting one point to gain 3 with a potential 8-1 instead of a 5-1. you're right and i'm wrong.

I apologise: However, for some reason i perceive it is more common-place now and i can only think that it is because when only 4 pts behind in first example, the opportunity exists to pull level with a single maximum, and a 6 pt deficit is retrievable + a TS could be broiught in to any heat so a 6 pt defecit may come along in another eat or so.., whereas when 8 (10) behind a managers thinking is 'we've lost this match' - whats the best opportunity to salvage a losing bonus point, i know- our top rider is in next heat? - therefore can't afford to miss the opportunity since he's not out again till after heat 12..this make sense? but i'm probably wrong about that too... :blush:

Edited November 1, 2013 by Mike.Butler

[waiheke1 4,295]

No apology needed.

I don't think in league speedway manipulation of the tac rules is more common than in the past, certainly the modest net maximum one point gain (in some exceptional circumstances it could two) makes it risky and rarely worthwhile.

The swc is a different story all together, as the rules mean u can throw one point to potentially gain six. and of course tac subs were never allowed in thexold world team cup ( reserves could be used, but that wasn't dependent on being behind).

[pandorum 1,259]

The double point rule is not really a tactical rule in the way the old tac sub rule was.

Under the old system you could throw in your best immediately after going 6 points down.

Now you have to wait to be 10 down and hope that you have someone in the next heat capable of offering a decent punt at scoring double points.

 

A team like Poole can take advantage as they have plenty of heat leaders but a team at the bottom would struggle and may have to wait a heat or two for a decent candidate to use it by which time they are further behind and the so called tactical rule is useless to them.

 

The old rule did not mean that you would immediately get back in the match but at least it made things interesting.

With minimum numbers of rides for the lesser members of a team it does actually involve some tactical thinking from managers whereas the current rule consists mainly of a panic measure of throwing someone in as a 'tactical' in the hope they might get a win or second.