waiheke1 4,295 Posted April 23, 2014 Not if they replace a rider with a higher average Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NeilWatson 1,988 Posted April 23, 2014 cheers.... would replacements still need to be within this figure?? SR 17.4 TEAM COMPOSITION 17.4.1 A Team’s initial Declaration must include 5 Riders whose combined MA does not exceed 32.00 points. This Declaration may include a maximum of 2 x “A” grade Riders and up to 2 Doubling-Up Riders who must at the time of declaration: a) be in a Premier League’s currently declared 1 – 7, have a PL MA established prior to the start of the season and c) give absolute priority to all British Speedway fixtures. The Team is completed with 2 Riders for the 6th & 7th positions as drafted from the British Speedway FTDP List. 17.4.2 A Teams combined MA for the top 5 positions must not exceed 32.00 points nor include more than 2 x “A” grade Riders or 2 Doubling-Up Riders (satisfying the same conditions as for the initial Team Declaration) when re-declared, either permanently or temporarily, except where the MA of the introduced Rider is equal to, or lower than the Rider being replaced. Similarly only Riders with the same or lower FTDP Grading may be re-declared for the 6th or 7th positions. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dontforgetthefueltapsbruv 10,683 Posted April 24, 2014 SR 17.4 TEAM COMPOSITION 17.4.1 A Teams initial Declaration must include 5 Riders whose combined MA does not exceed 32.00 points. This Declaration may include a maximum of 2 x A grade Riders and up to 2 Doubling-Up Riders who must at the time of declaration: a) be in a Premier Leagues currently declared 1 7, have a PL MA established prior to the start of the season and c) give absolute priority to all British Speedway fixtures. The Team is completed with 2 Riders for the 6th & 7th positions as drafted from the British Speedway FTDP List. 17.4.2 A Teams combined MA for the top 5 positions must not exceed 32.00 points nor include more than 2 x A grade Riders or 2 Doubling-Up Riders (satisfying the same conditions as for the initial Team Declaration) when re-declared, either permanently or temporarily, except where the MA of the introduced Rider is equal to, or lower than the Rider being replaced. Similarly only Riders with the same or lower FTDP Grading may be re-declared for the 6th or 7th positions. The grading issue is where a side may be prevented from manipulating the replacement of an over performing second string with a 'genuine'heat leader.Eg (sorry Poole!!) bringing in KK for a second string wouldnt be allowed. (assuming the top 2 are already graded A and KK would be also) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
waiheke1 4,295 Posted April 24, 2014 What is the definition of an "a grade" rider? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikebv 10,163 Posted April 24, 2014 (edited) SR 17.4 TEAM COMPOSITION 17.4.1 A Team’s initial Declaration must include 5 Riders whose combined MA does not exceed 32.00 points. This Declaration may include a maximum of 2 x “A” grade Riders and up to 2 Doubling-Up Riders who must at the time of declaration: a) be in a Premier League’s currently declared 1 – 7, have a PL MA established prior to the start of the season and c) give absolute priority to all British Speedway fixtures. The Team is completed with 2 Riders for the 6th & 7th positions as drafted from the British Speedway FTDP List. 17.4.2 A Teams combined MA for the top 5 positions must not exceed 32.00 points nor include more than 2 x “A” grade Riders or 2 Doubling-Up Riders (satisfying the same conditions as for the initial Team Declaration) when re-declared, either permanently or temporarily, except where the MA of the introduced Rider is equal to, or lower than the Rider being replaced. Similarly only Riders with the same or lower FTDP Grading may be re-declared for the 6th or 7th positions. words such as 'must not' lean you into believing that the rule is, as a rule should be, ie water tight and fit for purpose, until... you then see the word 'except'..... and you then also read about 'rider grading', and start to wonder 'when did that start'? and 'who are the 'A' grade riders'? and more importantly maybe 'who within the bspa has agreed who they actually are'? as always with british speedway administration, crystal clear.... let battle commence for the winner of 'ambiguous rule manipulator of the year award'...... (I know who my money's on).... Edited April 24, 2014 by mikebv 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
waiheke1 4,295 Posted April 24, 2014 Actually,id be surprised if pawlicki on a 7 is but janowski not at a touch under 7, so poole probably only have ward/holder currently as a grade a? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
racers and royals 8,697 Posted April 24, 2014 No way any "dodgy " change will get past this rule 16.3.5 The BSPA MC monitors all proposed moves and has the sole responsibility to approve all (re-)Declared Team Line-Ups having been satisfied they are in the best interests of the sport Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beesboybert 95 Posted April 24, 2014 The words ", except where the MA of the introduced Rider is equal to, or lower than the Rider being replaced" suggests that there is nothing to stop someone replacing a second string with a traditional heatleader. Using a different team as an example, before the Poole fans get all defensive, If Howarth benefits as a second string, and raises his average high enough to bring someone such as Freddie Lindgren in (I know it's a ridiculous situation, im just using them as examples) then there appears to be nothing in the rules to stop it, which seems a little silly. Next year may be even more farcical when team building, if certain riders stay at second string, then riders such as Lindgren and others who do not ride over here this year could be on comparable averages.I hope the BSPA have plans in place to stop this sort of thing 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
racers and royals 8,697 Posted April 24, 2014 The words ", except where the MA of the introduced Rider is equal to, or lower than the Rider being replaced" suggests that there is nothing to stop someone replacing a second string with a traditional heatleader. Using a different team as an example, before the Poole fans get all defensive, If Howarth benefits as a second string, and raises his average high enough to bring someone such as Freddie Lindgren in (I know it's a ridiculous situation, im just using them as examples) then there appears to be nothing in the rules to stop it, which seems a little silly. Next year may be even more farcical when team building, if certain riders stay at second string, then riders such as Lindgren and others who do not ride over here this year could be on comparable averages.I hope the BSPA have plans in place to stop this sort of thing Didn`t you read the post above yours !!!! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skidder1 7,617 Posted April 24, 2014 The words ", except where the MA of the introduced Rider is equal to, or lower than the Rider being replaced" suggests that there is nothing to stop someone replacing a second string with a traditional heatleader. Using a different team as an example, before the Poole fans get all defensive, If Howarth benefits as a second string, and raises his average high enough to bring someone such as Freddie Lindgren in (I know it's a ridiculous situation, im just using them as examples) then there appears to be nothing in the rules to stop it, which seems a little silly. Next year may be even more farcical when team building, if certain riders stay at second string, then riders such as Lindgren and others who do not ride over here this year could be on comparable averages.I hope the BSPA have plans in place to stop this sort of thing Using your example of introducing Lindgren for Howarth, I guess it would depend on whether both Andersen and Harris are classed as 'A' grade riders, (as per 17.4.2.)??? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
E I Addio 15,819 Posted April 24, 2014 What is the definition of an "a grade" rider? I checked the SCB website for the answer to that one. The Home page sets out the basic rules of the sport then adds "Any further questions, ask the person next to you". So there is your answer. Don't ask the bloke in the pub or the old lady at the bus stop, or even the referee, its the person next to you that will have the answer. Pretty obvious I suppose when you think about it. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dontforgetthefueltapsbruv 10,683 Posted April 24, 2014 Must admit I missed the line "except where...." before my previous post. So what I thought was a sensible safeguard is infact like a chocolate fireguard! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
waiheke1 4,295 Posted April 24, 2014 surely the "except for" applies only to thr 32 point rule, and not the two a grade rider or two double uppers rules? i realise its badly written, but it would make no sense for a team to be allowed more than 2 double uppers simply because the rider they brought in had a loer acerage than the non double upper they ere replacing? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stevebrum 6,819 Posted April 24, 2014 cheers.... would replacements still need to be within this figure?? Hopefully there will be no exceptions. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
waiheke1 4,295 Posted April 24, 2014 (edited) found it 17.3.3 Category 1 Riders will be listed on a “Grading Riders List”, published annually at the end of each season showing an Assessed MA based upon results obtained in all other Professional Speedway Leagues during that season. 17.3.4 Where a Rider has only an EL Established MA from the previous season, then this MA is used. The top 20 Riders on the Final EL MA’s in the previous season will be graded as an “A” Rider and shown accordingly on a List maintained by the BSPA. am i right in reading this that a rider on an asessed average couldn't be an a grade rider, as they ouldn't have been in the top 20 of the previous season CMA? So Pawlicki at wolves for example ouldnt be an a grade rider, but cook or king would be? so this may rule out kk, but not someone coming in on an assessed average, a lindback for example? ok - so neither janowski was not in the top 20 in the final 2013 greensheets. so kk could join poole, assuming pawlicki is not classed as grade a. however, Zagar, Cook and Nicholls all were i the top 20. So Belle Vue potentially have an illegal team? Edited April 24, 2014 by waihekeaces1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites