Mark 1,497 Posted June 11, 2014 (edited) A little tip, it might help, if you really aren't bothered about something, don't read the thread, let alone post! Mucho Gracias for being bothered to give me a useful life tip. Edited June 11, 2014 by marky Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FAST GATER 852 Posted June 11, 2014 Funny didn't more people watch the sport in the tape touching era or was it just my imagination ,far better to watch four robots than four individuals any day "not" .Mauger would have won regardless of the starting rules that was the nature of the beast he would have stayed still better than anyone else ,if people think that staying still is the best rule in the last 30yrs then I beg to differ . 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The Voice Of Reason 2,124 Posted June 12, 2014 (edited) And STILL, despite my request for many of the 'newbies' to justify their beliefs, I (and many others) remain totally unconvinced..........maybe because we are still awaiting a decent counter-argument? And as for the clones that forever cite Mauger as the prime culprit (most probably because what they have heard/read/believed such rhetoric) where's your actual proof that Ivan was any worse than Olsen, Michanek, etc. ? In a word.....'Baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah'. Edited June 12, 2014 by The Voice Of Reason 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mike.Butler 601 Posted June 12, 2014 get rid of 15m rule and keep tape touching as an exclusion but allow riders to anticipate start if they want as long as they don't touch tapes.. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BWitcher 12,453 Posted June 12, 2014 (edited) And STILL, despite my request for many of the 'newbies' to justify their beliefs, I (and many others) remain totally unconvinced..........maybe because we are still awaiting a decent counter-argument? And as for the clones that forever cite Mauger as the prime culprit (most probably because what they have heard/read/believed such rhetoric) where's your actual proof that Ivan was any worse than Olsen, Michanek, etc. ? In a word.....'Baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah'. I have already directed you to another thread where it is quite adequately explained. The main complaints we are seeing is the 'time it takes' to start the race, the gardening and messing around etc and the odd time where a race is pulled back when someone gets a flyer, but was actually just a good start... yet you are harking back to a system where races took a lot longer to start, riders messed around a hell of a lot more, the starts were frequently ragged and it basically was a mess. Once again, people are making a complaint and then harking back to a system where the very things they are complaining about were far worse... exactly the same as when complaints are made about the fairness of the TR. Incidentally, have you managed to learn your left from your right yet? Edited June 12, 2014 by BWitcher Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BWitcher 12,453 Posted June 12, 2014 (edited) On balance the current system is better than the old system although I'd prefer it if rides were only penalised for actually touching the tapes. Rolling, twitching or going BOO! to the next rider to make him jump and touch the tapes should be okay. I don't see how putting a substitute rider in a race on equal footing for equal points can be compared to allowing one of the four riders to double his score for doing exactly the same task as any other competitor in the meeting. Putting a star sub on is quite common in a lot of sports, doubling points isn't. They both might not be 'fair' but one is just plain daft. We've been through this many times. No objections to the idea of double points being used as a bit 'silly' shall we say... but folk I am referring to are ones who complain the current system isn't fair and want the old one back.. in the interest of 'fairness'. The old system was more unfair, there is no way of disputing that. Your analogy with other sports doesn't really pan out either.. it would be like a cricket team, 8 wickets down replacing the 10th batter in the order with the guy who batted no 3 and is already out. As regards the starting system used now, I'd be inclined to agree with you. If someone takes a flyer and doesn't touch the tapes, good for them, its a great start.. let it go. Edited June 12, 2014 by BWitcher Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
oldace 1,678 Posted June 12, 2014 (edited) On balance the current system is better than the old system although I'd prefer it if rides were only penalised for actually touching the tapes. Rolling, twitching or going BOO! to the next rider to make him jump and touch the tapes should be okay. I don't see how putting a substitute rider in a race on equal footing for equal points can be compared to allowing one of the four riders to double his score for doing exactly the same task as any other competitor in the meeting. Putting a star sub on is quite common in a lot of sports, doubling points isn't. They both might not be 'fair' but one is just plain daft. But thats the problem. It was never an equal rider, it was always an under performing rider replaced by an on song rider, sometimes 2 in the case of a double tac sub. It could, and often did, turn what would likely be a 5/1 against a team int a 5/1 for. That change then skews the score by 8 points. In the case of double points then the most it can skew a score is 3. As regards tape touching I personally prefer the idea of all the riders stationary and a fair reflex action start taking place but I can see an argument for a flyer being allowed. I suppose it is akin to a flukey pot in snooker, they dont re spot the ball because it was just luck, Edited June 12, 2014 by Oldace 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BWitcher 12,453 Posted June 12, 2014 (edited) As for fairness, just because there might be a bigger swing doesn't make it unfair does it? Brilliant. You've come out with some ridiculous statements in the past, but this is up there with the best of them. As for you dismissing the cricket example.. let us remember it is YOU that decided to compare to other sports. I've said they are not comparable in the slightest. You will not find anything in other sports that is comparable to the old tac sub system either. It is NOT the same as a substitution in football. It is giving a better rider an extra ride at the expense of a much weaker rider and is something that only the team losing can do. That's not how a substitution works in other sports is it, where the facility is available to both teams. Both concepts can be deemed ridiculous, both concepts are unfair. I readily admit the double points system is the more ridiculous looking idea, sadly you appear to be too pig headed to admit that the old system was the more unfair of the two. As for the starting, again, I agree with you. Just let them go unless they touch the tapes. Edited June 12, 2014 by BWitcher Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
g13webb 4,254 Posted June 12, 2014 Ivan Mauger loved the old way that's how he won most of his races I agree with you can't go back to that What a ridiculous statement that is. Ivan Mauger was one of the greatest riders ever in this sport, and you slander him as a cheat.. Ivan Mauger used every opportunity to his advantage. every time there was a rule, he would used it to the best possible outcome. Sure, he moved and rolled at the start, he was allowed to, sure he would push the tapes, of cause he would psych riders out to jump the start. He was brilliant. BUT if the rules then were the same as now, I can assure you Mauger would be the best at keeping still, and would always be first out of the traps. That man was the best starter the sport has ever known...... 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fredbogge 40 Posted June 12, 2014 I hope this will clear up one point about when a rider gets a flyer. if when the ref presses the go button thats his or her job done they have no control how fast or slow the tapes rise . so long as nobody touches the tapes before he or she presses the start button and does not then touch or break the tapes after the button is pressed and a rider is very smartly away then that a brilliant start and should be allowed. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BWitcher 12,453 Posted June 12, 2014 What a ridiculous statement that is. Ivan Mauger was one of the greatest riders ever in this sport, and you slander him as a cheat.. Ivan Mauger used every opportunity to his advantage. every time there was a rule, he would used it to the best possible outcome. Sure, he moved and rolled at the start, he was allowed to, sure he would push the tapes, of cause he would psych riders out to jump the start. He was brilliant. BUT if the rules then were the same as now, I can assure you Mauger would be the best at keeping still, and would always be first out of the traps. That man was the best starter the sport has ever known...... I don't see where he was being slandered as a cheat? He said Ivan Mauger loved the old way... he did. He said that's how he won most of his races.. it was. Where's the problem? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
g13webb 4,254 Posted June 12, 2014 I don't see where he was being slandered as a cheat? He said Ivan Mauger loved the old way... he did. He said that's how he won most of his races.. it was. Where's the problem? His whole post was, His insinuation and sarcasm that ' Mauger only won his races because he was allowed to roll at the start ' . that to me that making out he was cheating. He won most of his races because he was the best gater, Not because he was any different to everyone else. just better....... I have No Problems...........I was privileged to see the real master at work........ The Ultimate Professional..... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Star Fever 274 Posted June 12, 2014 I happen to think that doubling a score for no extra effort is a ridiculous concept and the best way of illustrating that is the engine failure scenario. A lone rider lines up at the tapes against a double tactical from the opponents. The track is very slick like Birmingham and passing is impossible. He makes the start and is away but on the last bend his bike stops and his opponents pass him, he limps home for the solitary point. 5-1. The same scenario today and 8-1! The team using the tactical gain an EXTRA 3 points for nothing! Not as simple as that tho is it? If the losing team were (say) 10 behind when they used the double tac sub in heat 8 (that was the usual favorite) and whether they got a lucky 5-1 or not they'd still be 6 behind and could have yet another tac sub in the next heat if they so desired so can potentially gain even more points! With the TR rule they might get an extra 3pts but its then less likely they'll get 12 behind and so can't use another one - that is much fairer surely?? As for the starting gate rules they're fine as they are EXCEPT refs should be more lenient if a rider appears to get a flyer. If he's satisfied that the riders are still before he releases the tapes its ludicrous to penalise a rider just because he anticipated the start perfectly. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Had Enough 233 Posted June 12, 2014 The regs actually state the max distance the wheel should be from the tapes. How about simply painting a second line behind the first at a specified distance where the front wheel would touch the ground, and then the ref can see clearly if someone moves. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SCB 0 Posted June 12, 2014 There seems to be a misunderstanding between what is an advantage and what is fair as for as the off topic discussion is concerned. Mathematically the old tactical could give a bigger advantage than the new one, not difficult to understand. If you don't want the losing team to have a bigger advantage while losing then I can live with that but saying it's 'not fair' is a bit like saying it wasn't fair when Muller had the GM for his world final. Massive advantage, yes, unfair, NO. For me the issue is about credibility. Substitutes are common in team sport, fact. Each sport uses substitutes in a different way but the principle of changing one competitor for another is commonplace. That is NOT a comparison by the way, lol! Some sports include some form of handicap to either make it more difficult for the winning team or easier for the losing team or player. The old tactical was just putting the two principles together to give the losing team an advantage which can be a bigger advantage than the new rule but is far more credible. The new tactical is just an off the wall barnpot load of bollox, it's not based even vaguely on any generally accepted rule and actually goes against one huge principle of fairness which is equal return for equal achievement. Holy crap. I think i agree with Drop a cog! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
