Kenny Carter Dvd.

[stratton 1,491]

You still haven't answered the question Sidney.

 

You don't need stats and race wins etc you've told me, so once again name me ONE world class rider who didn't win the majority of his races.

 

Come on, it must be easy for you.

 

Sidney, you really should stop talking as you are digging a bigger hole for yourself with every post.

 

Once again what you are claiming is quite simply mathematically impossible. You can't have the top riders being way above, but at the same time losing to the 2nd strings more.

 

Malcolm Holloway is like a Nicolai Klindt. He has beaten all the worlds best riders on a regular basis, not just once in a career. He too can score 0 in a meeting and look atrocious.

 

It's interesting you say to 'forget' stats.. but it's becoming more and more clear you're judging these riders based on them. All the averages you quote include bonus pts, which makes a BIG difference to many riders averages, especially 2nd and 3rd heat leaders and 2nd strings. It can turn a 6pt rider into a 7.5-8pt rider in some cases giving a totally different perception.

I am not digging a hole,no disrespect to you you did not see alot of these riders you are guessing is this right?you started watching in probably the most poorest version of the BL even then it was not the BL a very average version indeed in a deep transition.Your points are valid ,but please don't quote FACT again total dross you give your point of view i will give mine.As in most discussions you have to be the winner fair play but please don't quote fact again give your opinion i will give mine none of us have to be the WINNER Witcher remember that.

You still haven't answered the question Sidney.

 

You don't need stats and race wins etc you've told me, so once again name me ONE world class rider who didn't win the majority of his races.

 

Come on, it must be easy for you.

 

Sidney, you really should stop talking as you are digging a bigger hole for yourself with every post.

 

Once again what you are claiming is quite simply mathematically impossible. You can't have the top riders being way above, but at the same time losing to the 2nd strings more.

 

Malcolm Holloway is like a Nicolai Klindt. He has beaten all the worlds best riders on a regular basis, not just once in a career. He too can score 0 in a meeting and look atrocious.

 

It's interesting you say to 'forget' stats.. but it's becoming more and more clear you're judging these riders based on them. All the averages you quote include bonus pts, which makes a BIG difference to many riders averages, especially 2nd and 3rd heat leaders and 2nd strings. It can turn a 6pt rider into a 7.5-8pt rider in some cases giving a totally different perception.

A simple answer even for you no SPIN Witcher was the 70s a stronger era than now? Not that you were around then a YES OR a NO? whatever your answer i will respect it. Edited December 22, 2014 by sidney

[waiheke1 4,295]

Sid - in the past, did the top riders lose more often or less often to second strings than they do today?

Because on one hand you are saying the top riders then were better than top riders today, but on the other you are saying they were beaten by second strings more often?

[stratton 1,491]

Sid - in the past, did the top riders lose more often or less often to second strings than they do today?

Because on one hand you are saying the top riders then were better than top riders today, but on the other you are saying they were beaten by second strings more often?

What do you think ? also you have to remember the league was bigger then more variation in tracks different challenges alot more than now a visit to Exeter on a Monday then Coventry on a Wednesday a totally different challenge.

[waiheke1 4,295]

Id imagine todays second strings are more competitive. Ther are all professionals, and as such have comparatively better equipment than their latter day equivalents. Secondly, the move to designated gates mean the top riders can't dominate the favoured gates as in the past.

[BWitcher 12,453]

What do you think ? also you have to remember the league was bigger then more variation in tracks different challenges alot more than now a visit to Exeter on a Monday then Coventry on a Wednesday a totally different challenge.

 

The bigger the league, the easier it is and the more 'top riders' there appear to be.

 

It's very simple. 8 teams, you have 8 no 1's. 8 no 2's etc. 20 teams, you have 20 no 1's 20 no 2's. And so on. REGARDLESS of the strength of the leagues.

 

The British League in the 70's had more of the worlds top riders in it.. however, its still arguable whether the teams were that much stronger than even current EL teams (although the fast track has blurred that somewhat)... due to their being less teams in the EL now.

 

The British League in the 70's is nowhere near as strong as the top leagues in Sweden and Poland are now.. but again, that's primarily due to the number of teams.

 

The overall standard of riders is around the same. Waihekeaces has already demonstrated this, or do you believe Sidney that Peter Carr, Paul Thorp etc were better than Freddie Lindgren?

[stratton 1,491]

The bigger the league, the easier it is and the more 'top riders' there appear to be.

 

It's very simple. 8 teams, you have 8 no 1's. 8 no 2's etc. 20 teams, you have 20 no 1's 20 no 2's. And so on. REGARDLESS of the strength of the leagues.

 

The British League in the 70's had more of the worlds top riders in it.. however, its still arguable whether the teams were that much stronger than even current EL teams (although the fast track has blurred that somewhat)... due to their being less teams in the EL now.

 

The British League in the 70's is nowhere near as strong as the top leagues in Sweden and Poland are now.. but again, that's primarily due to the number of teams.

 

The overall standard of riders is around the same. Waihekeaces has already demonstrated this, or do you believe Sidney that Peter Carr, Paul Thorp etc were better than Freddie Lindgren?

No answer again, i will ask you again was the 70s stronger than it is now? iF you say Yes. It does not mean you are showing a weakness far from it.

[BWitcher 12,453]

I suggest you read it again Sidney as the answer is there.

 

You are the only person on the thread not answering simple questions.

 

I've asked you 4 times now, name me a top class rider who didn't win most of his races, as you've told us that's not how you judge the ability of a rider and that we should 'forget it'.

Edited December 22, 2014 by BWitcher

[stratton 1,491]

Id imagine todays second strings are more competitive. Ther are all professionals, and as such have comparatively better equipment than their latter day equivalents. Secondly, the move to designated gates mean the top riders can't dominate the favoured gates as in the past.

Do you think the second strings are better now i personally dont.

[The White Knight 9,039]

No answer again, i will ask you again was the 70s stronger than it is now? iF you say Yes. It does not mean you are showing a weakness far from it.

For what it is worth - I would say that the Teams in the Seventies were a lot stronger than the Elite League nowadays - and I was around then.

 

My reasoning is that most Teams in the British League had at least two, and sometimes three Heat Leaders of International standing, that number nowadays is down to about one (unless you are Poole).

 

We also now have some Riders in the Premier League riding for Great Britain in full Internationals regularly, which rarely happened the Seventies with British League Division Two Riders. British League Division One was strong enough to furnish full International Teams with Riders of International Class still on the periphery. THAT is how good we were.

 

For these reasons I conclude that the British League Division One Teams were definitely stronger than the Elite League Teams have been for a very long time.

[stratton 1,491]

The bigger the league, the easier it is and the more 'top riders' there appear to be.

 

It's very simple. 8 teams, you have 8 no 1's. 8 no 2's etc. 20 teams, you have 20 no 1's 20 no 2's. And so on. REGARDLESS of the strength of the leagues.

 

The British League in the 70's had more of the worlds top riders in it.. however, its still arguable whether the teams were that much stronger than even current EL teams (although the fast track has blurred that somewhat)... due to their being less teams in the EL now.

 

The British League in the 70's is nowhere near as strong as the top leagues in Sweden and Poland are now.. but again, that's primarily due to the number of teams.

 

The overall standard of riders is around the same. Waihekeaces has already demonstrated this, or do you believe Sidney that Peter Carr, Paul Thorp etc were better than Freddie Lindgren?

Wow we got there in the end,forget your mumbo/ jumbo the 70s had more top class riders in it thats what i thought thanks WItcher.

[waiheke1 4,295]

Not what he said. He said the 70s BL, not the 70s. That's a significant difference.

[BWitcher 12,453]

Wow we got there in the end,forget your mumbo/ jumbo the 70s had more top class riders in it thats what i thought thanks WItcher.

 

No, not what I said.

 

Still you haven't answered my question have you.. quite simply because you can't Sidney.

 

There has been no mumbo jumbo from me, I have been quite clear in what I have said and its backed up by facts, not make believe.

 

You however have constantly contradicted yourself.

For what it is worth - I would say that the Teams in the Seventies were a lot stronger than the Elite League nowadays - and I was around then.

 

My reasoning is that most Teams in the British League had at least two, and sometimes three Heat Leaders of International standing, that number nowadays is down to about one (unless you are Poole).

 

We also now have some Riders in the Premier League riding for Great Britain in full Internationals regularly, which rarely happened the Seventies with British League Division Two Riders. British League Division One was strong enough to furnish full International Teams with Riders of International Class still on the periphery. THAT is how good we were.

 

For these reasons I conclude that the British League Division One Teams were definitely stronger than the Elite League Teams have been for a very long time.

 

It's not been the debate, as the EL has been gradually weakened for a number of years now.

 

However, again you're falling into the old trap of, the more teams there are, the more it appears there are top riders. It's simple maths.

 

Take someone like Troy Batchelor. He'd be a 10pt+ heat leader under the 70's format.

 

As for your point regarding 'full' internationals, I would estimate around 75% of the top 5's of the Elite League last season are full international riders. I highly doubt the figure was higher in the 70's and if anything it is almost certainly lower... so again, your line of argument is flawed.

 

Once again it comes back to the fact that it was a bigger league, with an easier format, so there will be a lot more higher averaged riders.

Edited December 22, 2014 by BWitcher

[The White Knight 9,039]

 

No, not what I said.

 

Still you haven't answered my question have you.. quite simply because you can't Sidney.

 

There has been no mumbo jumbo from me, I have been quite clear in what I have said and its backed up by facts, not make believe.

 

You however have constantly contradicted yourself.

 

It's not been the debate, as the EL has been gradually weakened for a number of years now.

 

However, again you're falling into the old trap of, the more teams there are, the more it appears there are top riders. It's simple maths.

 

Take someone like Troy Batchelor. He'd be a 10pt+ heat leader under the 70's format.

 

As for your point regarding 'full' internationals, I would estimate around 75% of the top 5's of the Elite League last season are full international riders. I highly doubt the figure was higher in the 70's and if anything it is almost certainly lower... so again, your line of argument is flawed.

 

Once again it comes back to the fact that it was a bigger league, with an easier format, so there will be a lot more higher averaged riders.

What do we (Great Britain) win these days? Answer:- NOWT!!!

 

What did we (Great Britain) win in the '70s? Answer:- Just about everything at one time or another.

 

My argument stands.

 

Q.E.D.

[BWitcher 12,453]

What do we (Great Britain) win these days? Answer:- NOWT!!!

 

What did we (Great Britain) win in the '70s? Answer:- Just about everything at one time or another.

 

My argument stands.

 

Q.E.D.

 

That's not your argument though WK... you've just come up with a new one after I've shown your previous one to be false.

 

Although of course, we did have the World Champion last year.. How many world Champs did we have in the 70's? More than 1 or...

 

Seriously though, that is an entirely different argument and the roots of it lie in the change of the then National League in my opinion.

Edited December 22, 2014 by BWitcher

[customhouseregular 1,651]

For what it is worth - I would say that the Teams in the Seventies were a lot stronger than the Elite League nowadays - and I was around then.

 

My reasoning is that most Teams in the British League had at least two, and sometimes three Heat Leaders of International standing, that number nowadays is down to about one (unless you are Poole).

 

We also now have some Riders in the Premier League riding for Great Britain in full Internationals regularly, which rarely happened the Seventies with British League Division Two Riders. British League Division One was strong enough to furnish full International Teams with Riders of International Class still on the periphery. THAT is how good we were.

 

For these reasons I conclude that the British League Division One Teams were definitely stronger than the Elite League Teams have been for a very long time.

Spot on WK.