Kenny Carter Dvd.

[stratton 1,491]

Sidney, once again you aren't grasping it are you.

 

ER is giving you examples of WHY you are completely wrong in your assertions.

 

I am going to give you a stone cold FACT here.

 

If this lot rode NOW in the current set up...

 

Briggs,Mauger,E.Boocock,N.Boocock,Mauger,Olsen,Betts,Moore,McMillan,B.Jansson,T.Jansson,Michanek,Ashby,Simmons,Crump,Wilson,Jessup,Louis,Boulger,Persson,Lofquist,Eide,Sanders,Valentine

 

Only 8 of them would be No 1's, and only 3-4 of them would stand out.

 

Another 8 of them would be 7.5-8.5 men and the next 8 would be 7 pt men.

 

Basically riders such as Betts, Ashby, Louis, Sanders would be riders akin to Craig Cook now.

 

 

Correct, because they had easier rides.

I think you have had to much drink my friend,Cook comparable to Louis (ect) i am glad i don't grasp what you are trying to get me to agree to.Laughable really ask the old timers on here if a Cook ( forget your gates stats) is comparable to a LOUIS.Others on here will no better than me about the Tiger, i was lucky to see him ride about four times a year but at certain times in his career he was good anough to be a world champion ER summed it up perfectly for me.

Correct.

 

Back in the 70's a rider could race speedway for the first time one week and within a few weeks be in a team.

 

Never ever happens now.

 

Foreign riders could come in and rack up very high debut season averages, not 6-7 pts, but 8-9 or even higher.. very, very rarely happens now.

 

Yes it was easier. That is a FACT and its been explained to you over and over.

 

His average included bonus pts, he only raced against the opposite number 1 once a meeting in most cases and had pick of starting gate in most cases.

 

Plus the opposite no 1 he is against may be the 14th,15th, 16th best rider in the league etc.. so not difficult if you are one of the top 4 or 5 of the time.

 

None of this says Carter was a bad rider or diminishes from his ability at all.

Alot of good riders Witcher ie) an example John Cook did not get a assessed 6.00 average in his first season it was hard.Examples debut season in the BL.J.Cook,4.17. Ermolenko, 6.71(full season 4 matches the year before) S.Moran 6.47 Doncaster 6.07. Tatum 6.19. jJonsson 6.52. J.Andersson 4.56 why didn't these rack up great figures because they had to learn there craft in a tough league with different challenges at different tracks. Edited December 25, 2014 by sidney

[waiheke1 4,295]

Sid - you are still missing the point re number ones. You said those riders would be number one in any era. But if they were all riding today in an eight team league, some would only be third heat leaders. Louis is better thsn cook - cook is a third hl in a league missing hslf tge worlds to riders. But his average would be similar to cooks.

 

re the foreign riders, you are right. Penhall averaged 9, Nielsen and gundersen in the 7s, but pretty much anyone else you can nsme (add knudsen, jan o, correy to your list) were in the 6s.

but foreigners coming in now are not comparable, as they have generally ridden a number of seasons in equal or higher leagues abroad. Pawlicki for example is world u21 champ. By the time knudsen/moran were euro u21 champs they were 8 point riders - same as pawlicki if you include bp.

[stratton 1,491]

Sid - you are still missing the point re number ones. You said those riders would be number one in any era. But if they were all riding today in an eight team league, some would only be third heat leaders. Louis is better thsn cook - cook is a third hl in a league missing hslf tge worlds to riders. But his average would be similar to cooks.

re the foreign riders, you are right. Penhall averaged 9, Nielsen and gundersen in the 7s, but pretty much anyone else you can nsme (add knudsen, jan o, correy to your list) were in the 6s.

but foreigners coming in now are not comparable, as they have generally ridden a number of seasons in equal or higher leagues abroad. Pawlicki for example is world u21 champ. By the time knudsen/moran were euro u21 champs they were 8 point riders - same as pawlicki if you include bp.

I understand the point about averages i get that, but as a example say at Ipswich lLouis/Sanders/Davey ok take 1.5 off all there averages Louis 9.00. Sanders 8.50 Davey 7.50 and i am being generous with 1.5 deductions.And who is to say they would not of coped with the changes? but my main point is eaces1 those three riders i named would still be very good riders indeed do you understand that point.?Say Mauger's 11.74 was down to 10.30 and that with his gating prowess is a doubt he would still be a great do you see my point now?Maybe if you took 1.5 off all averages my opinion of these riders in that list does not change at all because of a lower average. Edited December 25, 2014 by sidney

[BWitcher 12,453]

I understand the point about averages i get that, but as a example say at Ipswich lLouis/Sanders/Davey ok take 1.5 off all there averages Louis 9.00. Sanders 8.50 Davey 7.50 and i am being generous with 1.5 deductions.And who is to say they would not of coped with the changes? but my main point is eaces1 those three riders i named would still be very good riders indeed do you understand that point.?Say Mauger's 11.74 was down to 10.30 and that with his gating prowess is a doubt he would still be a great do you see my point now?Maybe if you took 1.5 off all averages my opinion of these riders in that list does not change at all because of a lower average.

 

You still don't understand.

 

It has nothing to do with 'coping with the changes', It is to do with Maths.

 

In the 70's there is a chance as a no 1 you may only face the no 1 rider in the league TWICE in the whole season. Once in your home meet, once in the away. Now, you would be facing the no 1 rider in the league TWELVE times. The same for facing the No 2 rider in the league.. the same for the no 3 and so on.

 

Thus, if you are for arguments sake the 6th best rider in the league, you will go from having TEN races with opponents that are better than you across the season to having SIXTY races against opponents better than you. That is a massive difference.

 

Your opinion would change and you have already admitted as much by trying to suggest Matej Zagar isn't a true Number One as in days gone by. Why do you state that? Quite simply because he doesn't win as many races as No 1's in days gone by... Why doesn't he win as many races? Because he is in a tougher format and is racing the other top riders far more often. That immediately changes your perception. Zagar is in the bracket of riders just below the very top boys. So is akin to your Louis, Jessups of the world. He's won and been on the rostrum in GP's, just as Louis, Jessup made the rostrum in World Finals.

 

Your ENTIRE opinion of riders is based on how often you saw them winning races. As is the case with everyone else. Your futile suggestion that there are other reasons you have failed to back up. You can't provide me with the name of one single rider who you believed was top class that you didn't see winning most of his heats.

[Leicester Hunter 381]

from memory that was intoduced the same season (88?) as the nominated heat 15?

From what I can remember, fixed gate positions came in with the three ride minimum per meeting for everyone for the 1985 season after the big split, when the British League and National League went their separate ways. Those rules were implemented at BL level only.

 

What was rare Sid was visiting number ones having a complete nightmare meeting at Blunsdon. For example in recent seasons I recall riders like Zagar, NIcholls, Pedersen and Andersen scoring 4 or 5 points. Can't recall that happening in the 70's. Normally visiting number ones were feared and would produce double figure returns.

Yes, that's right. As the top riders could monopolise the best gate positions if they wished, they were rarely beaten by opposition second strings unless they suffered mechanical problems or a fall. Let's also not forget that bonus points helped to inflate averages as well. One rider who bucked the trend was Briggo, who over the first eight seasons of the BL from '65 to '72 raced in 247 matches but only picked up 14 bonus points over that time, so his CMA was fairly representative as it stood.

 

However, on the other hand, a workaday rider such as Arnold Haley picked up a fair number of bonus points during his career, and in 1974 alone collected 55 of them, scoring no fewer than eight maximums (four full, four paid) on the way to achieving a CMA of 6.98. Take off those bonus points and that average drops to 5.61, and he still scored four maximums. That's without fixed gate positions and 'like for like' racing.

 

I do think the BL of forty odd years ago was tougher than the EL is today, BUT - if you cut the number of teams in half and include fixed gate positions and 'like for like' as happens now, you would end up with stats and figures which are largely like the ones we see today.

[waiheke1 4,295]

Chris harris is a very good rider. Better than davey imo. But he is a 5-6 point rider in poland. If you had only ever seen him ride in the polish league, would u really appreciate what a good rider he is?

The riders you nsmed were very good riders. But the reason we think that is they won races. If they had won less races, we wouldnt rate them so highly.

[Leicester Hunter 381]

Chris harris is a very good rider. Better than davey imo.

Mmmm, that's an interesting one, but taking the physical handicap Tony Davey had to overcome after his awful crash on Good Friday 1972 into account, it was a wonder he ever rode again, let alone become a heat leader at BL level.

[waiheke1 4,295]

From what I can remember, fixed gate positions came in with the three ride minimum per meeting for everyone for the 1985 season.

fixed gates was definitely introduced after 87.

Pretty s ure it was 88, and imo had a much smaller impact on averages than the introduction of nominated heat 15.

[Leicester Hunter 381]

fixed gates was definitely introduced after 87.

Pretty s ure it was 88, and imo had a much smaller impact on averages than the introduction of nominated heat 15.

Could be the old memory playing tricks on me, I admit that. TBF, I didn't watch many BL matches after '84 anyway, as my club, Birmingham reinvented itself at NL level. And after they closed at the end of '86, I was pretty much out of speedway until 2007.

 

One thing I did notice upon returning to the sport, was that generally the top riders' averages were lower. I think a number of factors are in play with that: Fixed gate positions, the nominated race, but most importantly, no bonus points being included to bump up the CMA.

[BWitcher 12,453]

Not just the nominated race, but Heat 13 as well.

[stratton 1,491]

You still don't understand.

 

It has nothing to do with 'coping with the changes', It is to do with Maths.

 

In the 70's there is a chance as a no 1 you may only face the no 1 rider in the league TWICE in the whole season. Once in your home meet, once in the away. Now, you would be facing the no 1 rider in the league TWELVE times. The same for facing the No 2 rider in the league.. the same for the no 3 and so on.

 

Thus, if you are for arguments sake the 6th best rider in the league, you will go from having TEN races with opponents that are better than you across the season to having SIXTY races against opponents better than you. That is a massive difference.

 

Your opinion would change and you have already admitted as much by trying to suggest Matej Zagar isn't a true Number One as in days gone by. Why do you state that? Quite simply because he doesn't win as many races as No 1's in days gone by... Why doesn't he win as many races? Because he is in a tougher format and is racing the other top riders far more often. That immediately changes your perception. Zagar is in the bracket of riders just below the very top boys. So is akin to your Louis, Jessups of the world. He's won and been on the rostrum in GP's, just as Louis, Jessup made the rostrum in World Finals.

 

Your ENTIRE opinion of riders is based on how often you saw them winning races. As is the case with everyone else. Your futile suggestion that there are other reasons you have failed to back up. You can't provide me with the name of one single rider who you believed was top class that you didn't see winning most of his heats.

Witcher another point you did not mention and maybe others will often some of the stronger riders did not always ride at no 1 so the old format was not always a cakewalk.Collins,Crump,Sjosten,( ect) rode at three or five so the opposing no 1 did not have an easy time.The heat 8 was often the cream for the No1 and he usually won his tactical.But my main point which i have tried to point out to you,teams then because most had star no1s that's what made speedway for me that's why i am passionate about this subject.Often you might only see a visiting no1 once a year unless you see them maybe in a individual meeting the teams 16/18 in a league.That is what i remember going early on a Saturday to usually see a star no 1 everyweek.I don't now go on Thursday now believing that not since Leigh went anyway so my memory might be playing tricks but whatever i enjoyed the times.

[BWitcher 12,453]

Sidney, don't misunderstand me.

 

I completely agree with you with regards to the awe and the aura surrounding the top riders back then. As there were more teams you saw them less and thus it was much more exciting when you did. Plus, with the addition of the GP series we see the top riders every other week so it's not such a 'big deal' anyway.

 

It's an interesting debate as to what effect this current heat format would have had on the league in the 70's. You would have seen the big boys racing against each other far more often which would surely have created more exciting racing? However, you quite simply wouldn't have been in awe of as many of them as you would be used to seeing them being beaten on a far more regular basis.

[E I Addio 15,843]

Sidney, don't misunderstand me.

 

I completely agree with you with regards to the awe and the aura surrounding the top riders back then. As there were more teams you saw them less and thus it was much more exciting when you did. Plus, with the addition of the GP series we see the top riders every other week so it's not such a 'big deal' anyway.

 

It's an interesting debate as to what effect this current heat format would have had on the league in the 70's. You would have seen the big boys racing against each other far more often which would surely have created more exciting racing? However, you quite simply wouldn't have been in awe of as many of them as you would be used to seeing them being beaten on a far more regular basis.

That absolutely hits the nail on the head. If you are only seeing riders twice a year quite often their reputation goes before them so they have this kudos about them before they even get to the tapes. Absolutely right about .he GP's . Familiarity breeds contempt and when you are seeing the real top stars every couple of weeks you tend to take them for granted . Add to that we get things like the SWC televised it takes the edge off the drama.

 

I think heat 15 had had a big impact. It's very difficult to string 4or 5 good starts together. Quite often we see a rider with 10 orv11 points after 4 rides which would be very impressive on the old format but after 5 rides he still has 10 or 11 which is less impressive.

 

FWIW I think there are plenty of riders today who are every bit as entertaining as in years gone by. I am struggling at the moment to think of more than one or two riders who compare with Peter Karlsson for example, one of my all time favourites. Few riders of any generation can compare to his ability to think a race out , and to be on the right part of the track at the right time.. Riders like Peter Collins and Briggo couldn't do that but they were totally different types of rider that had different skills and an all out full throttle style that PK doesn't have.different types of rider from different generations. They have to be appreciated for what they are. You can't. Really compare on to another.

[stratton 1,491]

That absolutely hits the nail on the head. If you are only seeing riders twice a year quite often their reputation goes before them so they have this kudos about them before they even get to the tapes. Absolutely right about .he GP's . Familiarity breeds contempt and when you are seeing the real top stars every couple of weeks you tend to take them for granted . Add to that we get things like the SWC televised it takes the edge off the drama.

I think heat 15 had had a big impact. It's very difficult to string 4or 5 good starts together. Quite often we see a rider with 10 orv11 points after 4 rides which would be very impressive on the old format but after 5 rides he still has 10 or 11 which is less impressive.

FWIW I think there are plenty of riders today who are every bit as entertaining as in years gone by. I am struggling at the moment to think of more than one or two riders who compare with Peter Karlsson for example, one of my all time favourites. Few riders of any generation can compare to his ability to think a race out , and to be on the right part of the track at the right time.. Riders like Peter Collins and Briggo couldn't do that but they were totally different types of rider that had different skills and an all out full throttle style that PK doesn't have.different types of rider from different generations. They have to be appreciated for what they are. You can't. Really compare on to another.

I think you will find that PC and Briggs won plenty of races on smallish tracks , Collins i saw loads of times in his pomp around Reading(ect) superb he was not just a flat out round the boards merchant.In a way you would of thought PC would become a one trick pony around the mighty Hyde Rd but he was adaptable a brilliant allround motorcyclist.

[EnglishRoundabout 1,752]

Similarly, Briggo was superb around Plough Lane.