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Then again, turkeys don't vote for Christmas.

 

Like i said , My thoughts only and unlike turkeys i am entitled to my opinion.

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Hi Dan,

 

 

I have 2 options of engines.

 

1 is a GM engine with factory parts and a RPM limiter aimed at the entry level riders. The price of that is 3000 pounds + vat

 

2 is a GM engine with my tuning parts. The price of that is 4300 pounds + vat.

 

The problem i have is that whenever you offer this option to people, They always go with the more expensive option. I have recently sold a GM factory engine (built by myself) to a UK rider with the RPM limiter and he will run this now for 100 heats.

 

My service charges are:

 

252 for labour plus parts.

 

I do a reduced rate for any riders sending there engine from he UK to my Polish workshop to help cover the cost of the freight which is usually 60 pounds both ways, I usually split that and take it off the labour.

 

On average , My riders at UK level are doing 40-50 races per service. They could do more but its the same old thing, If the rider is earning money they want just invest a little in there engines so they get it done a little earlier to make sure its totally fresh for the play offs etc etc. But most of the time the engine will be able to do a lot more than they are actually doing.

 

Heres the point, It doesn't matter what engine you ride.... Fatigue will set in at some point so if its a GM or a GTR they are going to need the parts replacing. Piston speeds and the engine configuration is exactly the same as the GM so why all of a sudden should the GTR do more races than the GM ? I infact would not touch the wossner piston , producer for the GTR's pistons with a bargepole if i am totally honest. So why should that do more than a cosworth/ GM Asso piston?

 

The answer isn't to buy a GTR at national league level for 4000 + vat and think your problems are over. At some stage, That will need a new piston , A new con rod, New titanium valves, new valve springs just like a GM so why would it be cheaper? i have seen the GTR price list and its not cheap.

 

The facts are people are coming with keep contradicting themselves. The truth is, It's not a proven enough product in my eyes to warrant a 360,000 pound investment.

 

Simple test. Do what Klymakorpi did, Put a limiter on at 13,000 and see how long the GM lasts.

 

If any one who wants to start speedway reads this, buy a 1500 bike off e bay take the engine to my colleague in Swindon Dave broome before you start. Get the engine serviced, and invest in a RPM limiter ( about 500/600 pounds for the service with parts & ignition i would presume) Get him to service the carb also so for under 2500 you have a complete bike ready to race which will do the whole season (depending on what level you are at your career)

 

Just a thought: No one has ever asked me about all the old parts i have here which are more than suitable to be passed down through the ranks. I donate everything to the training school at Torun who have a guy there who uses them for kids starting out. I am sure PJR throws stuff away which is more than suitable for people starting off. I wonder if anyone has ever approached him.

 

Thanks

 

Ash

 

Thanks again Ash, brilliant reading. So appreciated.

I wasn't chasing prices but seeing as you'd added them it certainly added to the discussion.

 

So, when putting your 2 main posts together you'd be confident that the £4300 AshTech with limiter (extra cost?) would be competitive with the GTR over longevity, plus your service parts / charges would be cheaper than the GTR?

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Thanks again Ash, brilliant reading. So appreciated.

I wasn't chasing prices but seeing as you'd added them it certainly added to the discussion.

 

So, when putting your 2 main posts together you'd be confident that the £4300 AshTech with limiter (extra cost?) would be competitive with the GTR over longevity, plus your service parts / charges would be cheaper than the GTR?

 

Yes regarding that the oil i recommend goes in and its well maintained not a problem at all and the plus side to the ASH-TECH engine (or any other tuners) will be it will be made to suit.

But i speak for all the tuners on when i say this, as we all agree on the subject of RPM limiters , But like i said before soon it will be compulsory anyway.

 

The RPM limiters we have had in the past have been set too low that why people seem to be against them but the GTR is set at 13,200 i believe so the engines i will supply will have the same as they are from the same producer.

 

GM are currently making a new engine which will be available by the end of the season which will have a more sophisticated oil supply to the main components and a oil filter for those who wish to run there oil longer. A more compact valve train and simple design will make the engine lighter and easier to work on. This will lower service costs i am sure.

 

Thanks

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Yes regarding that the oil i recommend goes in and its well maintained not a problem at all and the plus side to the ASH-TECH engine (or any other tuners) will be it will be made to suit.

But i speak for all the tuners on when i say this, as we all agree on the subject of RPM limiters , But like i said before soon it will be compulsory anyway.

 

The RPM limiters we have had in the past have been set too low that why people seem to be against them but the GTR is set at 13,200 i believe so the engines i will supply will have the same as they are from the same producer.

 

GM are currently making a new engine which will be available by the end of the season which will have a more sophisticated oil supply to the main components and a oil filter for those who wish to run there oil longer. A more compact valve train and simple design will make the engine lighter and easier to work on. This will lower service costs i am sure.

 

Thanks

Will it be sealed and strictly monitored and every engine be the same or as near as they can be( I know the train of thought that no two engines are quite the same)or will we still have riders with the biggest pockets having an unfair edge as is the case now with GM's ?.

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Will it be sealed and strictly monitored and every engine be the same or as near as they can be( I know the train of thought that no two engines are quite the same)or will we still have riders with the biggest pockets having an unfair edge as is the case now with GM's ?.

 

If that was to be the case, Sure GM could provide the same service as GTR not a problem. We all have CNC machined cylinder heads now and cams are not a problem.

 

My engines will not be sealed. Why would you if its not compulsory? Which is why i am baffled that the BSPA have announced the GTR will be sealed and can only be touched by a service centre. You either do it for everyone, Or don't bother at all.

 

Let me give you this scenario. A young rider has invested in a new GTR. There is a problem with it that someone local could fix for him but he has to drive half way across the country to get it fixed by a service centre but has a meeting the next day? What will he do? He can't get it fixed himself as from what Mr Godfrey/BSPA said in the speedway star if the seal is broken you wont be allowed to ride but the guy who has turned up with his GM/Jawa is completely fine.

 

Like i said before, Not against change. Not against the GTR. Against the fact that once again this hasn't been thought through and the money that has been thrown into this project is ludicrous.

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Well, what a bloody brilliant thread this has been. I applaud the fact that the BSPA are trying something, however it does seem again that its been rushed through slightly. At pretty much every level of motorsport there are restrictions on performance etc, however speedway does not seem to have moved on.

 

IMO the best thing British speedway could do is to set up a technical committee, to think such projects through, eg we have had an ex rider give seemingly sensible thoughts, plus an engine tuner putting a bit of meat on the bones. Why have such people not been consulted? There must be vast knowledge knocking around the sport why is not being used to enhance the standards of the british riders?

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Well, what a bloody brilliant thread this has been. I applaud the fact that the BSPA are trying something, however it does seem again that its been rushed through slightly. At pretty much every level of motorsport there are restrictions on performance etc, however speedway does not seem to have moved on.

 

IMO the best thing British speedway could do is to set up a technical committee, to think such projects through, eg we have had an ex rider give seemingly sensible thoughts, plus an engine tuner putting a bit of meat on the bones. Why have such people not been consulted? There must be vast knowledge knocking around the sport why is not being used to enhance the standards of the british riders?

 

 

Its something that has to be done at a higher level. The FIM need a technical committee i believe.

 

I have just read Chris Louis article in the speedway star which was interesting read. Its another example of someones opinion being put through the right channels to be heard but unfortunately he is wrong.

 

Me and around 20 other engine tuners/retailers visited the Suter factory in 2015. It cost me around 600 pounds to make the trip there but i thought it would be worth it to see what Suter/GTR have to offer.

 

It was a pleasant trip and we actually debated in the meeting the actual structure of the business then asked why we were invited to the meeting if the plan was to cut out the tuners all together. They believed there was a place in this for us but the engines at that stage were 7000 euros retail. Which we all said was way to much and needed to be a lot lower.

 

Marcel kindly stripped down the engine in front of us and showed us everything which is a lovely looking engine. Marcel is a perfectionist but anyone who is involved in engines in general noticed that there wasn't anything new in his engine. Its technology which is been seen in other forms of engines.

 

The flywheels are pretty much the same as the GM has and like i said before i don't rate the wossner piston but thats each to there own. The cylinder head is completely different to the GM/Jawa as it has 2 camshafts. This technology has been around longer than i have existed so for Chris to say its something advanced is quite surprising.

 

Agreed , The oil system is nice. It has jets to the piston for cooling and channels through the engine to the finger followers but again its nothing new.

 

He also mentions that the quality and parts are a lot better than the GM. I disagree entirely. Its no different to what we use. We all buy from the same suppliers anyway.

 

Interesting debate, I have had my say and think its probably best not to comment anymore. I hope that gives everyone a interesting insight into how things look from the other side. If anyone has any questions, Please feel free to contact me.

 

Thanks

 

Ash

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Any idea why the rev limiter has taken so long? Surely that was the logical first step all along, they started testing a long time ago and it seemed like the riders who tried it liked it then the idea seemed to disappear.

 

I've always liked the idea as I think it's simple, relatively cheap and easy to police. Very little lost by anybody if the idea didn't work but it seems to have been bypassed for a far more expensive and complicated alternative.

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Any idea why the rev limiter has taken so long? Surely that was the logical first step all along, they started testing a long time ago and it seemed like the riders who tried it liked it then the idea seemed to disappear.

 

I've always liked the idea as I think it's simple, relatively cheap and easy to police. Very little lost by anybody if the idea didn't work but it seems to have been bypassed for a far more expensive and complicated alternative.

Vince, It seems like anything simple to execute in speedway is always given the cold shoulder. Thanks Ash

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Peter Johns, in printed interviews, has said the biggest breakers of engines is over revving & cleanliness. As Ash has pointed out, the rev limiter is one of the ways to go.

 

About the oil scenario, the GTR has its own pump & filter so does not need changing often(120-160 heats?). Peter Johns pointed out that it was best to use a certain oil & change the oil(850cc) every 2 heats making it another £50-60 per 2 meetings. Rock Oil is 1 make that a lot of riders have on their kevlars & bike covers & Motorrex is another top oil used. There are other cheaper options available.

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Peter Johns, in printed interviews, has said the biggest breakers of engines is over revving & cleanliness. As Ash has pointed out, the rev limiter is one of the ways to go.

 

About the oil scenario, the GTR has its own pump & filter so does not need changing often(120-160 heats?). Peter Johns pointed out that it was best to use a certain oil & change the oil(850cc) every 2 heats making it another £50-60 per 2 meetings. Rock Oil is 1 make that a lot of riders have on their kevlars & bike covers & Motorrex is another top oil used. There are other cheaper options available.

I cannot comment on what PJR does but the way i advise the riders is to keep the oil in the whole meeting. Then change it. I use the gauze filter surrounding the oil pump ( some people don't use them so might be why they change oil so often )

 

I don't like the way the engines are cooled as mechanics put air coolers on one side of the engine and cool one side of a hot cylinder and cylinder head, Its never cooled evenly. So i always want the oil to be a reasonable temperature so when they start the bike, The engine gets up to temperature evenly. I am not a fan of cold oil in a hot engine but thats my opinion , Everyone has there own ideas.

 

You could probably use the oil more than one meeting but it's always nice to check if there is anything in the oil that could lead to a bigger problem later down the line.

 

Thanks

 

Ash

Edited by ASHTECH
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If that was to be the case, Sure GM could provide the same service as GTR not a problem. We all have CNC machined cylinder heads now and cams are not a problem.

 

My engines will not be sealed. Why would you if its not compulsory? Which is why i am baffled that the BSPA have announced the GTR will be sealed and can only be touched by a service centre. You either do it for everyone, Or don't bother at all.

 

Let me give you this scenario. A young rider has invested in a new GTR. There is a problem with it that someone local could fix for him but he has to drive half way across the country to get it fixed by a service centre but has a meeting the next day? What will he do? He can't get it fixed himself as from what Mr Godfrey/BSPA said in the speedway star if the seal is broken you wont be allowed to ride but the guy who has turned up with his GM/Jawa is completely fine.

 

Like i said before, Not against change. Not against the GTR. Against the fact that once again this hasn't been thought through and the money that has been thrown into this project is ludicrous.

Many thanks for your input I do accept that you are in an awkward position and have given a interesting and fair account from a tuners perspective .

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I'm probably the least technically/mechanically aware person around, but I have found this thread to be sooooooo interesting!!

 

Many thanks to Dean and Ash and everyone who has chipped in with knowledgeable nuggets!!

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Interesting debate, I have had my say and think its probably best not to comment anymore. I hope that gives everyone a interesting insight into how things look from the other side. If anyone has any questions, Please feel free to contact me.

I for one thank you. It's always nice to get a more technical background on things from the people who know. Its one part of speedway thats still very much a black art to me!

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Charlie Monk used to bring hot oil in a Thermos (other flasks are availlable) to put into his engine. :t::cheers:

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