ford 26 Posted August 25, 2015 The one thing that worries me is the apparent power of the bikes today Watching Bomber "take off" at Kings Lynn showed clearly that the machines have become monsters to handle We've seen Tai, one of the smoothest riders in the world, find his machine leap up underneath him I seem to recall reading recently that riders couldn't ride other riders' bikes the way they are now set up and the way they handle And now we have Darcy's crash, caused, by the look of the video, by his bike lifting and carrying him into the back of Laguta In the "good old days" - yes, I know there have always been bad injuries and fatalities - I remember riders regularly swapping bikes and racing their hardest in the "final of the night " in second halves at Brandon You wouldn't be able to have that these days So, something has to be done to "de-power" the bikes so that they are more manageable and safer to ride The tyres supplied this year are a softer rubber compound, hence more grip. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Glenn 26 Posted August 25, 2015 The tyres supplied this year are a softer rubber compound, hence more grip. Are they the same tyres supplied in all countries now? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ford 26 Posted August 25, 2015 Are they the same tyres supplied in all countries now? If they are the same make as ours with a red stripe then they are the softer type. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bellevueace 912 Posted August 25, 2015 The bikes have got more and more powerful but the tracks are exactly the same sizes as they were 50+ years ago so even with air fences there are going to be more crashes, do we really need so much speed that the bikes of today produce to enjoy exciting speedway? I dont think so, maybe less speed and more old fashioned track craft would see less serious injuries and the air fences would perhaps be more effective? 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ford 26 Posted August 25, 2015 The bikes have got more and more powerful but the tracks are exactly the same sizes as they were 50+ years ago so even with air fences there are going to be more crashes, do we really need so much speed that the bikes of today produce to enjoy exciting speedway? I dont think so, maybe less speed and more old fashioned track craft would see less serious injuries and the air fences would perhaps be more effective? The 70's 2 valve Jawa handbook claims 48 bhp @ 8000 rpm, current GM's are making around 80 bhp....... 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ruffdiamond 6,115 Posted August 25, 2015 The bikes have got more and more powerful but the tracks are exactly the same sizes as they were 50+ years ago so even with air fences there are going to be more crashes, do we really need so much speed that the bikes of today produce to enjoy exciting speedway? I dont think so, maybe less speed and more old fashioned track craft would see less serious injuries and the air fences would perhaps be more effective? Its ok saying 'slow things down', but racers will still want to go faster and, they'll find a way to do it,,, Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BWitcher 12,453 Posted August 25, 2015 (edited) NO!! If you want to do further research - I would recommend that you read Post 68 (Vince) and 69 (Haydon Hat) two excellent Posts which express mt thoughts and feelings very well. It would be a waste of time me replying to your Post properly - you wouldn't believe me anyway. I will read all of your Posts - but don't bother asking me any questions - I will not answer them. You know why. I've done the research, I can't find all these serious injuries on small tracks. You claim there are lots of them.. merely asking for examples. If you can't provide any, that says everything. I've read Vince's excellent post, at no point does he come close to agreeing with your sweeping proclamation that its the small UK tracks that are the issue. The serious injuries seem to be occuring on the bigger tracks, which is logical. The one thing that worries me is the apparent power of the bikes today Watching Bomber "take off" at Kings Lynn showed clearly that the machines have become monsters to handle We've seen Tai, one of the smoothest riders in the world, find his machine leap up underneath him I seem to recall reading recently that riders couldn't ride other riders' bikes the way they are now set up and the way they handle And now we have Darcy's crash, caused, by the look of the video, by his bike lifting and carrying him into the back of Laguta In the "good old days" - yes, I know there have always been bad injuries and fatalities - I remember riders regularly swapping bikes and racing their hardest in the "final of the night " in second halves at Brandon You wouldn't be able to have that these days So, something has to be done to "de-power" the bikes so that they are more manageable and safer to ride Tai has never been one of the 'smoothest riders in the world'! He's always crashed a lot throughout his career! Riders lifting has always gone on, certainly since the 1980's when I started attending. Riders looping at the start gate was a fairly regular occurence in the past, you don't see it very often now. One thing the modern bikes don't like is inconsistent track surfaces. As regarding riding other riders bikes, again this isn't a new thing surely? Right back to when I first started going it has always been deemed difficult if you borrowed another riders bike.. not due to the engine setup but the positioning of saddle, handlebars etc. Edited August 25, 2015 by BWitcher Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Blackadder 280 Posted August 25, 2015 Sometime late last season, I posted that there were, from memory, 26 EL/PL riders whose season had ended early due to injuries. I have just had a quick look for this season, and I make it about 20 riders who have finished already, and about 19 others who have missed more than 2 or 3 weeks due to injury. That is roughly 1 from each category per team. It would be nice to know if the SCB ever do season by season analysis of data produced by Incident Reports. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Humphrey Appleby 13,918 Posted August 25, 2015 That is a cogent enough point but in practice who does the looking and what are the limits of their brief ? Looking at the power of the bikes would involve technical experts (where would they come from ? I agree it's a problem to obtain unbiased technical advice, whether from tuners or riders. However, F1 seems to manage, accepting that it has much more money for research. There are motor sports research facilities around that given an explanation of the issues and end result that should be achieved, could probably work out a theoretical specification for an engine and its ancillaries. Obviously that would need to be tested with experienced riders, preferably ones newly retired who should have less self interest. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ghostwalker 1,858 Posted August 25, 2015 I've done the research, I can't find all these serious injuries on small tracks. You claim there are lots of them.. merely asking for examples. If you can't provide any, that says everything. I've read Vince's excellent post, at no point does he come close to agreeing with your sweeping proclamation that its the small UK tracks that are the issue. The serious injuries seem to be occuring on the bigger tracks, which is logical. Tai has never been one of the 'smoothest riders in the world'! He's always crashed a lot throughout his career! Riders lifting has always gone on, certainly since the 1980's when I started attending. Riders looping at the start gate was a fairly regular occurence in the past, you don't see it very often now. One thing the modern bikes don't like is inconsistent track surfaces. As regarding riding other riders bikes, again this isn't a new thing surely? Right back to when I first started going it has always been deemed difficult if you borrowed another riders bike.. not due to the engine setup but the positioning of saddle, handlebars etc. I don't know about the UK tracks but 8 years ago Kenny Olsson crashed at Kråkvilan in Norrköping and later died at the hospital. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
New Science 1,059 Posted August 25, 2015 Sometime late last season, I posted that there were, from memory, 26 EL/PL riders whose season had ended early due to injuries. I have just had a quick look for this season, and I make it about 20 riders who have finished already, and about 19 others who have missed more than 2 or 3 weeks due to injury. That is roughly 1 from each category per team. It would be nice to know if the SCB ever do season by season analysis of data produced by Incident Reports. Maybe the F.I.M should carry out some analysis,they are the ones that control the specification of the bikes Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vince 9,454 Posted August 26, 2015 I'm convinced that Bream has it absolutely right in his last post. It's not about the amount of power that is produced but how it's produced. If you choose to reduce power by lowering the capacity limit you would potentially be making that band where the bike is rideable even narrower and therefore 50hp could be a whole lot more dangerous than 75hp. Unlike just about any other motor sport wheelspin is safer than grip. I still think a minimum stroke coupled to a rev limiter would be the way to go rather than worry about hp figures. Maybe give free rein engine wise to the GP but in my mind there is no doubt that long stroke engines with heavier flywheels would make bikes easier to ride and set up. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Countershaftcounter 360 Posted August 26, 2015 An insert in the carb to reduce the diameter to 28mm is the easiest and cheapest solution to reduce power, (and the easiest to police) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Humphrey Appleby 13,918 Posted August 26, 2015 I still think a minimum stroke coupled to a rev limiter would be the way to go rather than worry about hp figures. Maybe give free rein engine wise to the GP but in my mind there is no doubt that long stroke engines with heavier flywheels would make bikes easier to ride and set up. I wonder if some sort of electronic traction control safety device could be developed, whereby it allows more power if the wheel is spinning, but reduces it if the wheel grips too much? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Star Lady 5,400 Posted August 26, 2015 I wonder if some sort of electronic traction control safety device could be developed, whereby it allows more power if the wheel is spinning, but reduces it if the wheel grips too much? I'm female and don't do technical or mechanical, so bear in mind I have no idea what the device you suggest would do, but wouldn't it be easier to simplify the engine rather than develop something extra. Less components to fail or go wrong as well. Of course the biggest problem with anything that will reduce the perceived power is getting the riders to accept it! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
