SCB 0 Posted December 18, 2015 This one time, I watched Sam and he fell off. I don't ever remember seeing Shawn Moran fall off. In fact I don't ever remember seeing Mark Burrows fall off (if I ignore all the times he did) so he was probably one of the most talented riders ever. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phillipsr 2,053 Posted December 18, 2015 Mark Burrows the best rider ever just poor machinery. Sam was far better than Moran not even close and Mike Lee must be the biggest under achiever of all time. Talented but an absolute moron Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Endeavour 681 Posted December 18, 2015 Mark Burrows the best rider ever just poor machinery. Sam was far better than Moran not even close and Mike Lee must be the biggest under achiever of all time. Talented but an absolute moron Were the Moran brothers 2 of the most naturally talented riders ever to grace our sport? Yes. Did they have the dedication and self discipline to reach their potential? No. Entertainers undoubtedly. Sam the Man had both the natural talent and a champions mindset. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stratton 1,491 Posted December 18, 2015 (edited) Were the Moran brothers 2 of the most naturally talented riders ever to grace our sport? Yes. Did they have the dedication and self discipline to reach their potential? No. Entertainers undoubtedly. Sam the Man had both the natural talent and a champions mindset.Dunno about Natural, both Morans had more ability than Sam ever had, but fair play i do think that era opened it up.Where Sam was lucky No Penhall,Lee,Carter,,Sigalos,Sanders fair play to Sam he did well.! Edited December 18, 2015 by sidney Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BWitcher 12,453 Posted December 18, 2015 (edited) Dunno about Natural, both Morans had more ability than Sam ever had, but fair play i do think that era opened it up.Where Sam was lucky No Penhall,Lee,Carter,,Sigalos,Sanders fair play to Sam he did well.! Yep, the Morans were so good it took Sam a full 3 years from when he first got on a speedway bike to surpass everything the Morans ever achieved between them. Even in his mid 50's, the lacking in ability Ermolenko can race nigh on as fast as the worlds best.. For all their so called 'natural ability' the Morans and Lee could barely ride a bike in their mid 30's. Edited December 18, 2015 by BWitcher Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stratton 1,491 Posted December 18, 2015 Yep, the Morans were so good it took Sam a full 3 years from when he first got on a speedway bike to surpass everything the Morans ever achieved between them. Even in his mid 50's, the lacking in ability Ermolenko can race nigh on as fast as the worlds best.. For all their so called 'natural ability' the Morans and Lee could barely ride a bike in their mid 30's. A massive statement ask people who you RESPECT? saying that what a pathetic post really PATHETIC have a good think on what you have just said if you av a Brain cell left??? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BWitcher 12,453 Posted December 18, 2015 (edited) A massive statement ask people who you RESPECT? saying that what a pathetic post really PATHETIC have a good think on what you have just said if you av a Brain cell left??? Another rant.. Let me know which part of my post is incorrect. It's not an opinion, its reality. Edited December 18, 2015 by BWitcher Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
orion 7,610 Posted December 18, 2015 (edited) He won his title in a poor era,and dress it up as much as you like he averaged 4.25 is that right ?Per Jonsson had to beg to get a work permit fair play to Bob Radford for that though. So Muller must crap then if you judge people on there first season ...why the change of heart I thought you said he was good Edited December 18, 2015 by orion Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ColinMills 1,728 Posted December 19, 2015 with all the Autrey stuff, I decided to look him up, through you tube and google.he was riding in my era but only saw him at foxhall prob once a year. I see he was a lot better than I imagined from memory Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BWitcher 12,453 Posted December 19, 2015 (edited) Did a bit of digging as Sidney was infatuated with how quickly riders hit their stride. Here's a sample of riders and their averages in their second full season of racing in the British League. There's a surprise guy at no 1! Bobby Schwartz 10.00 Bruce Penhall 9.88 Sam Ermolenko 9.72 Dennis Sigalos 9.32 Hans Nielsen 8.85 Billy Hamill 8.77 Kelly Moran 8.47 Scott Autrey 8.32 Shawn Moran 8.27 Erik Gundersen 8.09 Per Jonsson 6.33 Greg Hancock 5.51 Edited December 19, 2015 by BWitcher Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
HeathenatOdsal85! 1 Posted December 19, 2015 (edited) The contact I see is right at the end, on the exit of the turn and entry to the straight, when Carters front wheel brushes Penhalls back wheel, as Carter is already on the way down. Are you seeing the knock of the handlebar at the point that Carter says there is contact? (although, as you mention, Carters description is somewhat misleading to say the least!). Ive replayed several times (its around halfway around the second bend ) and cant see a thing that suggests contact at that point, even when watching Carter's handlebar. Its ironic, they bash into each other several times before that, the last being the entry to the first turn, but Carter comes off without any contact until hes already on the way down. He really got himself into completely the wrong position. All the best Rob What are you watching on? If you are watching on Youtube you're not going to see it. I've no idea when Kenny Carter says there is contact, other than the "leg" thing, which is clearly wrong. As I've said, the contact with the handlebars is when Bruce's back wheel flips out. Whatever other factrs are taken into account, the thing that causes Carter to actually fall is Penhall's back wheel swiping his handlebars. You will need good quality footage to see it, though. And the one on Youtube with American commentry cuts views at exactly the moment to make you miss it. Keep watching, Rob. Grachan, I'm not sure if this is the footage you are talking about which shows a second angle of the Penhall and Carter incident from the rear which really helps to form a clearer opinion. I believe you can see Penhall making contact with Carters handlebar at 1.19, but it's what runs up to this which gives it context - the way it looks to me is that Carter is already on the way down at that point. The way I see it is this: 1.16 Bruce drifts out slightly wider (where his left leg kicks out) - arguably his right as there is space between them so he can still pick his line at this point 1.17 (towards the end of 1.17 and into the start of 1.18) Kenny, possibly due to the proximity of Bruce coming under him also shifts line and body position significantly, adopting, for me, the position of a rider who is already coming down, he's already starting to straighten up, and his front wheel is already beginning to tuck underneath. 1.19 after Kenny's alignment shift as described above, there then appears, as you mention, the contact between his handlebar and Bruce's rear mudguard / push bar, but by this time it appears, as noted above he's already going down as on a trajectory towards the fence. I'm doing it on my phone so can't state the exact freeze frame times, but if you run it through frame by frame it appears to me anyway, clearly that Kenny is already straightening up and on the way down before any contact. You really do need to do it frame by frame though. I guess it would be arguable he could have stayed on without the contact, but if anything it does look to me he's already falling onto the rear end of Bruce's bike. So if we were to discount contact as the actual cause of the fall (following the train of thought that he's already going down) then the only other question about Bruce being at fault would be whether his riding earlier in the bend is the initial cause (otherwise it has to be Kenny as cause of stoppage) And that's possibly another debate, and i'm out of time to freeze frame through that right now! However I'd say, apart from his line shift at 1.16 Bruce didn't really appear to do much else questionable to me, he's running Kenny wider for sure, but could it be classed as unfair? Having a quick look Kenny appears to be drifting / struggling to hold his line of his own accord a couple of times earlier in the bend, already heading out wider and wider. Bruce is fairly wide though, you can see from his tyre tracks after his line shift at 1.16 how wider he is than the usual line through that bend, but is that in itself unfair? As with that manoeuvre to push Kenny wider, does Kenny have chance to roll the throttle off and tuck back in behind? I personally struggle a bit to see that actual manoeuvre as the cause, it's like the whole incident is just like a perfect storm of circumstances! But in essence perhaps this is secondary anyway, as the main debate with this incident is whether Bruce caused him to fall through contact, and from what I've viewed and described above it would appear not. Anyway, open to further debate no doubt! Edited December 19, 2015 by HeathenatOdsal85! 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Halifaxtiger 5,318 Posted December 19, 2015 I have to agree but I'm trying not to be biased. Mauger was 'ridiculously' good in the late 1960's & 1970's and would probably done even better under the GP system.... Don't think you are being biased, MM. If the GP system had been in force from the late 1960's its difficult to see anyone beating Mauger for about 10 years. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
waiheke1 4,295 Posted December 19, 2015 Don't think you are being biased, MM. If the GP system had been in force from the late 1960's its difficult to see anyone beating Mauger for about 10 years. Not sure I agree. Olsen and pc were top notch riders, fancy them to have taken a couple each (Olsen maybe a 3rd) and Lee one in 79. Maurer may have won 7, but don't think any more than that. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Halifaxtiger 5,318 Posted December 19, 2015 (edited) Barry Briggs Ivan Mauger Ole Olsen Peter Collins Hans Nielsen If you count Kenny Carter's World Pairs win in 1983, he did it too. Not sure I agree. Olsen and pc were top notch riders, fancy them to have taken a couple each (Olsen maybe a 3rd) and Lee one in 79. Maurer may have won 7, but don't think any more than that. A debatable point for sure. As good as Collins and especially Olsen were, over 10 or 12 rounds I don't think they'd match Mauger. In 14 seasons between 1966 and 1979, Mauger qualified for every world final and only finished outside the top 4 once. In the British League, he averaged over 11 on 7 occasions. Edited December 19, 2015 by Halifaxtiger Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stratton 1,491 Posted December 19, 2015 Did a bit of digging as Sidney was infatuated with how quickly riders hit their stride. Here's a sample of riders and their averages in their second full season of racing in the British League. There's a surprise guy at no 1! Bobby Schwartz 10.00 Bruce Penhall 9.88 Sam Ermolenko 9.72 Dennis Sigalos 9.32 Hans Nielsen 8.85 Billy Hamill 8.77 Kelly Moran 8.47 Scott Autrey 8.32 Shawn Moran 8.27 Erik Gundersen 8.09 Per Jonsson 6.33 Greg Hancock 5.51 Averages stats on the brain totally irrelevant, these figures do not show what the level of rider they were up against do they?? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
