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European Union - In Or Out?

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9 hours ago, Steve Shovlar said:

Newspapers now saying empty supermarkets by Christmas with no deal. 

 

 

 

Ive just Googled “Supermarkets empty by Christmas”. It threw up a whole plethora of scare stories about empty supermarkets , including photographs of empty shelves - in December 2019 and again in 2018. Some people have short memories.  There were also similar stories in March, August and October this year. All I could find about empty supermarkets this year was a YouTube clip suggesting various reasons like customers having a spending spree after lock down, 5 million more Brits spending Christmas at home instead of going abroad this year, and other things with Brexit well down the list.

These empty shelves stories the papers trot out every year to fill pages cheaply, like similar guesses about rail fare hikes,  record hot summers bad weather winters , or what Katie Price is doing. They are just pap to get a fill space.

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7 hours ago, Steve Shovlar said:

You would have thought by now this corrupt and pathetic government would be braying about all the wonderful benefits about to come our way with a no deal brexit. But what do we hear? Absolutely nothing. Because there are no benefits unless you own a hedge fund or are trying to avoid paying hundreds of millions in tax on your offshore bank accounts. 

George Osborne sums the whole sorry mess up in an editorial today in the Standard. ‘Only a small percentage of a small percentage would have voted for what we are going to get this week, if they had known this in 2016”. 

Hardly a good example to quote considering his time spent as Chancellor.

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13 hours ago, Humphrey Appleby said:

We've had this discussion before.

Holiday pay was only statutory in certain industries and was not a universal entitlement. It was only when the EU Social Chapter was implemented in 1998 that it became a universal right.

I can quite categorical tell you that because I wasn't entitled to, and didn't receive holiday pay in a full-time job that I did for 3 years. 

Yes but by 1998 all employment law was coming via EU directives anyway. That was part of Maastricht. It is folly though to suggest this was some gift of the EU and wouldn’t have happened anyway. I say that partly because the UK has for the most part introduced various employment laws including those appertaining to holiday pay to a higher standard than the EU minimum, and partly because one thing this country has been pretty advanced on for the best part of 150 years is conditions of employment. These things have to evolve slowly as the economy grows to cope with them but the realisation came, slowly, from about the 1930’s onwards that good standards of employment are good for the economy. The tourist industry depends heavily and people having holidays for longer and more frequent periods. Health and Safety laws are important because the economy is better off with people at work than on Social Security, and so on. Also, until the 1990’s we had powerful trade unions to drive things forwards, unlike many other countries . All these things are quite separate from in or out of the EU.

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5 hours ago, steve roberts said:

Hardly a good example to quote considering his time spent as Chancellor.

Not a good example of a person but what he said is spot on .

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2 hours ago, E I Addio said:

It is folly though to suggest this was some gift of the EU and wouldn’t have happened anyway. I say that partly because the UK has for the most part introduced various employment laws including those appertaining to holiday pay to a higher standard than the EU minimum, and partly because one thing this country has been pretty advanced on for the best part of 150 years is conditions of employment. These things have to evolve slowly as the economy grows to cope with them but the realisation came, slowly, from about the 1930’s onwards that good standards of employment are good for the economy. 

You say that it would have happened anyway, but it didn't until the Social Charter came along. 

The economy could well afford statutory holidays even by the 1960s, so it was ridiculous that it took until 1998 to get them. It was down to the usual opposition from those nonsensical Tory factions who'd claim it would damage the economy, just the same as those who opposed the minimum wage and continue to oppose the living wage. 

Quite amazingly, the economy didn't grind to a halt with the introduction of the minimum wage nor statutory holidays, and indeed thrived for a decade. :rolleyes:

 

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16 hours ago, PHILIPRISING said:

IF you mean Woking, the Shaf Jahan Mosque is the first purpose built mosque in the country and yes there are community areas that are almost if not totally Muslim.

Of course, you might be referring to Florida, where I haven't been for 18 months and I am unaware of any segregated communities in Sarasota.

Well I don't want to divulge personal information (as some have done with me on here), but there's a place advertised round your way that's described as....

Located in one of Woking's premier estates, this exclusive gated community inhabits the sprawling green ... 

Does that not qualify as segregated? :D

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5 minutes ago, Humphrey Appleby said:

Well I don't want to divulge personal information (as some have done with me on here), but there's a place advertised round your way that's described as....

Located in one of Woking's premier estates, this exclusive gated community inhabits the sprawling green ... 

Does that not qualify as segregated? :D

NO... you know full well Powell meant segregated by race

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1 hour ago, Humphrey Appleby said:

You say that it would have happened anyway, but it didn't until the Social Charter came along. 

The economy could well afford statutory holidays even by the 1960s, so it was ridiculous that it took until 1998 to get them. It was down to the usual opposition from those nonsensical Tory factions who'd claim it would damage the economy, just the same as those who opposed the minimum wage and continue to oppose the living wage. 

 

My Goodness have you any idea what the economy was like in the ‘60’s and 70’s

Britain was the Sick Man of Europe . 11 million days a year being lost through strikes, sales of French and German cars exceeded sales of British for the first time, Toyota producing something like 30 cars per employee, Volkswagen was about 23 per employee British Leland was 4 . Roaring inflation. As for Tory factions claiming it would damage the economy ,  it was, in case you didn’t notice a Labour Government for most of those years. 

However the fact remains that statutory holiday pay , in the UK is better than most of Europe. We are not bouncing along the bottom on EU minimums. This is not something foisted on us against our will by the EU, otherwise we would be on minimums.

 

 

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38 minutes ago, E I Addio said:

My Goodness have you any idea what the economy was like in the ‘60’s and 70’s

Britain was the Sick Man of Europe . 11 million days a year being lost through strikes, sales of French and German cars exceeded sales of British for the first time, Toyota producing something like 30 cars per employee, Volkswagen was about 23 per employee British Leland was 4 . Roaring inflation. As for Tory factions claiming it would damage the economy ,  it was, in case you didn’t notice a Labour Government for most of those years. 

However the fact remains that statutory holiday pay , in the UK is better than most of Europe. We are not bouncing along the bottom on EU minimums. This is not something foisted on us against our will by the EU, otherwise we would be on minimums.

 

 

You're cut off down there, drive north and you'll see Thatchers economic miracle laid bare. Depravation, homelessness, dereliction, a plethora of foodbanks, empty high streets boarded up factories, no jobs, decaying housing plus a mountain of debt never seen in peacetime UK. The ordinary working man was far better off in the 1970's you're looking at the world through Daily Mail tinted spectacles.

Edited by Pieman72
Grammar

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4 minutes ago, Pieman72 said:

You're cut off down there, drive north and you'll see Thatchers economic miracle laid bare. Depravation, homelessness, dereliction, a plethora of foodbanks, empty high streets boarded up factories, no jobs, decaying housing plus a mountain of debt never seen in peacetime UK. The ordinary working man was far better off in the 1970's you're looking at the world through Daily Mail tinted spectacles.

The ordinary working man probably was better off in the 70s, but that isn't a fault of Thatcher. The cause is globalisation and the ordinary working man in Britain having no more skills today the average Chinese or Indian worker, but expecting to be paid four times as much for doing the same job.

We need to train our population, so they have skills which are in demand in 2020. Looking back to what it was like 50 years ago, wishing globalisation away or demanding the minimum wage is increased so millions of retail, food service and warehouse workers get slightly better pay is not the answer.

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10 minutes ago, Pieman72 said:

You're cut off down there, drive north and you'll see Thatchers economic miracle laid bare. Depravation, homelessness, dereliction, a plethora of foodbanks, empty high streets boarded up factories, no jobs, decaying housing plus a mountain of debt never seen in peacetime UK. The ordinary working man was far better off in the 1970's you're looking at the world through Daily Mail tinted spectacles.

THERE'S a word for that... let me think for a second. I know ... twaddle

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2 hours ago, orion said:

Not a good example of a person but what he said is spot on .

He was part of the then Government who instigated the referendum campaign/vote so must accept some responsibility as to how it was presented to the electorate and eventual conclusion.

Edited by steve roberts
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4 minutes ago, MattK said:

The ordinary working man probably was better off in the 70s, but that isn't a fault of Thatcher. The cause is globalisation and the ordinary working man in Britain having no more skills today the average Chinese or Indian worker, but expecting to be paid four times as much for doing the same job.

We need to train our population, so they have skills which are in demand in 2020. Looking back to what it was like 50 years ago, wishing globalisation away or demanding the minimum wage is increased so millions of retail, food service and warehouse workers get slightly better pay is not the answer.

TOO often we underestimate and undervalue the brilliant skills of many thousands of workers in the UK

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3 minutes ago, PHILIPRISING said:

TOO often we underestimate and undervalue the brilliant skills of many thousands of workers in the UK

Indeed. It seems to nurse who administered the first Covid vaccine yesterday was from another country outside the EU even.....

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2 minutes ago, PHILIPRISING said:

TOO often we underestimate and undervalue the brilliant skills of many thousands of workers in the UK

Yes, and the millions of workers in the UK who don't have the necessarily skills or are unwilling to acquire them, and would rather blame everyone else for that.

IMO, British professionals and bespoke skilled workers remain second-to-none in the world, somewhat despite the UK education and training system. Give them a one-off to make, a problem to solve or something that needs to be improved at minimal cost, and they'll usually outperform anyone from China, India or wherever. However, don't expect them to be working in a factory turning out widgets day-after-day to any great standard.

And therein lies the problem. Those that don't have or can't develop these skills are increasingly destined to work for low wages in Amazon warehouses or wherever, and this gap is getting bigger-and-bigger.

In the meantime, governments twiddle their thumbs whilst unpleasant corporate raiders who're only interested in having cheap pools of labour, fund campaigns playing on their frustrations and blaming funny foreigners for all their ills. Cause enough disruption to cause businesses to fail so they can be snapped up at bargain rates, whilst pay and conditions can be rolled back even further as people feel lucky to even have jobs.

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