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The White Knight

European Union - In Or Out?

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3 minutes ago, PHILIPRISING said:

THERE'S a word for that... let me think for a second. I know ... twaddle

Sorry it's not twaddle it''s FACT more working class people purchased property in the 1970's and we had more disposable income. The reason it went wrong is it was a devious campaign to destroy the Unions blame them for the ills of the country and install a right wing authoritarian Government.

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1 hour ago, E I Addio said:

My Goodness have you any idea what the economy was like in the ‘60’s and 70’s

I'm well aware of what the economy was like in the 1970s, yet people lucky enough to work in industries with paid holidays were still able to take them. 

1 hour ago, E I Addio said:

As for Tory factions claiming it would damage the economy ,  it was, in case you didn’t notice a Labour Government for most of those years. 

As a general rule, the unions backing Labour represented industries that already had statutory holidays or had them as part of collective bargaining agreements. So they didn't give a toss about anyone else, which I suspect is more the reason Labour didn't get around to introducing them.

However, Labour actually only governed for a total of 11 years during the 40 year period 1957-1997, and only for one significant period. The Tories were in power for 18 years and failed to introduce any of the working conditions that just about every other developed country (including the arch-capitalist US) had done in the same period. 

1 hour ago, E I Addio said:

However the fact remains that statutory holiday pay , in the UK is better than most of Europe. We are not bouncing along the bottom on EU minimums.

Yes, but that was done by the Blair government and was possibly down to an inadvertent (but fortunate) screw-up when the legislation was drafted. 

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The reason we are in this mess is public school boys, the old boy network and cronies of differing varieties.The best are their Stately Homes and how The National Trust has called them out.

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1 hour ago, Humphrey Appleby said:

Yes, and the millions of workers in the UK who don't have the necessarily skills or are unwilling to acquire them, and would rather blame everyone else for that.

IMO, British professionals and bespoke skilled workers remain second-to-none in the world, somewhat despite the UK education and training system. Give them a one-off to make, a problem to solve or something that needs to be improved at minimal cost, and they'll usually outperform anyone from China, India or wherever. However, don't expect them to be working in a factory turning out widgets day-after-day to any great standard.

And therein lies the problem. Those that don't have or can't develop these skills are increasingly destined to work for low wages in Amazon warehouses or wherever, and this gap is getting bigger-and-bigger.

In the meantime, governments twiddle their thumbs whilst unpleasant corporate raiders who're only interested in having cheap pools of labour, fund campaigns playing on their frustrations and blaming funny foreigners for all their ills. Cause enough disruption to cause businesses to fail so they can be snapped up at bargain rates, whilst pay and conditions can be rolled back even further as people feel lucky to even have jobs.

People who empty bins, work in warehouses, clean toilets and so on are and always will be undervalued by society. The fact is that what they do will always be of equal value in society to many more skilled jobs and of a great deal more value than some of the best educated and best paid.

The whole plot falls down when everybody thinks they are too good for those jobs and we try and move every person up the ladder. The idea that we should try and apply academic qualifications on those who are unsuited is crazy and we would be far better utilising the abilities they have and putting them in on the ground floor and promoting the best into management. After all putting well educated graduates straight into management positions in those sort of areas has often been a disaster, we are a nation that in the past couple of decades have become expert in putting theory ahead of reality in the work place. Of course the theorists think it is important that a roofer knows the distance between the safety rails on a cage while the roofers know how long it takes to learn to do the job properly and knew all along it's not a skill learned in 6 weeks in the classroom.

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14 minutes ago, Vince said:

People who empty bins, work in warehouses, clean toilets and so on are and always will be undervalued by society. The fact is that what they do will always be of equal value in society to many more skilled jobs and of a great deal more value than some of the best educated and best paid.

I've never denigrated anyone who goes out and does a job, whatever it is, and I fully agree that bin men and cleaners are important. However, the fact remains those jobs are not equal in value because most people could do them, whereas few can be brain surgeons, and pay levels largely reflect that. 

Equally, if someone has taken the trouble to develop skills that the country needs - including continuing in education whether you value you that or not - and often paying for that themselves - why should they be knocked for that? More to the point, why should their opportunities be restricted because those who can't or won't develop skills resent that?

14 minutes ago, Vince said:

The whole plot falls down when everybody thinks they are too good for those jobs and we try and move every person up the ladder. The idea that we should try and apply academic qualifications on those who are unsuited is crazy and we would be far better utilising the abilities they have and putting them in on the ground floor and promoting the best into management. After all putting well educated graduates straight into management positions in those sort of areas has often been a disaster, we are a nation that in the past couple of decades have become expert in putting theory ahead of reality in the work place. Of course the theorists think it is important that a roofer knows the distance between the safety rails on a cage while the roofers know how long it takes to learn to do the job properly and knew all along it's not a skill learned in 6 weeks in the classroom.

The usual rant against education then. 

I wouldn't disagree that academic qualifications aren't the right path for many, but I absolutely disagree that people should just be happy with low paid unskilled jobs and not aspire to something better. That the worst type of patronising, keep-the-peasants-ignorant type of claptrap that you used get back in Victorian times. 

But the point about graduates is that whilst university often doesn't qualify you to do anything in particular, it does generally give you an all-round wherewithal that helps you quickly pick up new skills and adapt to changing circumstances. And shock horror, being a graduate and having practical skills are not mutually exclusive - I'm a competent household electrician, okay woodworker and metalworker, can disassemble and repair simple engines, and grew up on construction sites so have a decent idea of how things are built including roofs. I'm not going to be a skilled roofer in 6 weeks, nor do I want to be, but I probably could turn my hand to it if that was the only thing going. 

And perhaps having some insight from graduates has actually improved safety rather than just let the 'experts' employ lax safety standards and fall off roofs as used to happen...? :D

 

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1 hour ago, Vince said:

People who empty bins, work in warehouses, clean toilets and so on are and always will be undervalued by society. The fact is that what they do will always be of equal value in society to many more skilled jobs and of a great deal more value than some of the best educated and best paid.

The whole plot falls down when everybody thinks they are too good for those jobs and we try and move every person up the ladder. The idea that we should try and apply academic qualifications on those who are unsuited is crazy and we would be far better utilising the abilities they have and putting them in on the ground floor and promoting the best into management. After all putting well educated graduates straight into management positions in those sort of areas has often been a disaster, we are a nation that in the past couple of decades have become expert in putting theory ahead of reality in the work place. Of course the theorists think it is important that a roofer knows the distance between the safety rails on a cage while the roofers know how long it takes to learn to do the job properly and knew all along it's not a skill learned in 6 weeks in the classroom.

Quite right.  Where I've worked we have had plenty of 'well educated' people join without the first clue in common sense or how to build relationships.  Skills are acquired in many ways, all of them valuable in the right place.

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3 hours ago, Pieman72 said:

You're cut off down there, drive north and you'll see Thatchers economic miracle laid bare. Depravation, homelessness, dereliction, a plethora of foodbanks, empty high streets boarded up factories, no jobs, decaying housing plus a mountain of debt never seen in peacetime UK. The ordinary working man was far better off in the 1970's you're looking at the world through Daily Mail tinted spectacles.

Who mentioned Thatchers economic miracle ? I didn’t  because there wasn’t one. There was high inflation and high unemployment.

This is your problem. You read something that isn’t there then go into one and start making silly accusations about looking at the world through Daily Mail tinted spectacles.

 That’s why we can’t take you seriously.

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3 hours ago, PHILIPRISING said:

TOO often we underestimate and undervalue the brilliant skills of many thousands of workers in the UK

Thousands of people have brilliant skills and they are recognised accordingly. The problem is, with 32m working people, that leaves an awful lot of not-brilliant people.

I agree, a lot of people are underestimated. I am baffled at the argument that people who are binmen and cleaners should be happy with their lot, as they are doing a valuable service. I don't believe for a second that 10% of the population are vastly more intelligent and that's why they occupy the top jobs. I think there is actually very little difference in most people, the reason that some go on to do well and others become binmen and cleaners is simply because they are encouraged as children, embrace education and make good life choices. Nothing which is out of the reach of the vast majority.

As for undervalued, no. Companies pay what they have to in order to attract and retain staff. If a job requires no formal education, training or experience, then the pool of potential workers is vast and salaries will only ever be rock bottom. This is simple supply and demand. As I said, too many people in Britain are competing for these jobs, not just against other people in Britain, but around the world.

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25 minutes ago, SPEEDY69 said:

Quite right.  Where I've worked we have had plenty of 'well educated' people join without the first clue in common sense or how to build relationships.  Skills are acquired in many ways, all of them valuable in the right place.

Good post. It brings to mind my father-in-laws favourite expression “ all brains and no common sense”. 

Edited by E I Addio

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4 hours ago, MattK said:

The ordinary working man probably was better off in the 70s, but that isn't a fault of Thatcher. 

 

My grandad was a store manager at Harwell Atomic Energy Research Establishment and earned £5,000 a year and my Latin teacher earned £7,000.

My guess is that equivalent workers are better off now.

Interest rates and Aldi certainly give an advantage!

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4 minutes ago, E I Addio said:

Good post. It brings to mind my father-in-laws favourite expression “ all brains and no common sense”. 

So explain to me why the 7% of elite public school boys get 95% of the top jobs? When state school pupils go to university they perform significantly better than kids from independent schools? This educational belttling is so wrong. I've been though 2 universities and common sense analogies show how little you understand academia and  independent learning. I presume your father-in-law went to the Univercity of Life.

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22 minutes ago, Pieman72 said:

So explain to me why the 7% of elite public school boys get 95% of the top jobs? When state school pupils go to university they perform significantly better than kids from independent schools? This educational belttling is so wrong. I've been though 2 universities and common sense analogies show how little you understand academia and  independent learning. I presume your father-in-law went to the Univercity of Life.

I take it English wasn't a priority course for you at Uni ? :D

Edited by Phlipphlopp
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10 minutes ago, Phlipphlopp said:

I take it English wasn't a priority course for you at Uni ? :D

Duur I do have spell check...well spotted !!

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10 minutes ago, Pieman72 said:

Duur I do have spell check...well spotted !!

We're all on the same page unfortunately we look at the world from different perspectives.

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