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The White Knight

European Union - In Or Out?

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Just now, PHILIPRISING said:

WHY would you expect better? A fan of Macron? He is very anti-British. 

Macron’s done a lot of good things. He’s also done a lot of bad things too. If I’m a fan or not doesn’t come into it, Boris has gambled and it appears to have paid off on the vaccine front, it’s a shame he has 120k deaths which he appears to have forgotten about. 
 

The “I’d expect better” was about you resorting to pointing out his apparent lack of stature. 
 

Then again personal attacks seem the way to go in British journalism 

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12 minutes ago, Jonny the spud said:

Macron’s done a lot of good things. He’s also done a lot of bad things too. If I’m a fan or not doesn’t come into it, Boris has gambled and it appears to have paid off on the vaccine front, it’s a shame he has 120k deaths which he appears to have forgotten about. 
 

The “I’d expect better” was about you resorting to pointing out his apparent lack of stature. 
 

Then again personal attacks seem the way to go in British journalism 

PLENTY of personal attacks on here and in the media across the world. Just look at the USA over the past four years. It is not just a British trait.

No fan of Boris (although he is very good at winning elections) but you cannot lay the blame for 120,000 deaths at his door alone and I very much doubt that he has forgotten them. That in itself is insulting. The Covid debate elsewhere on here is one I avoid (don't feel qualified to comment) but know for a fact that many people who have Covid listed on their death certificates certainly did not die of it. 

Johnson or anyone in his position, and that includes Merkel and Macron, are damned in they do or damned if they don't. 

But I am certainly happy that I have had the first dose of the vaccine and not at least perturbed that it is the AstraZeneca version.

 

 

Edited by PHILIPRISING
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21 minutes ago, Jonny the spud said:

Macron’s done a lot of good things. He’s also done a lot of bad things too. If I’m a fan or not doesn’t come into it, Boris has gambled and it appears to have paid off on the vaccine front, it’s a shame he has 120k deaths which he appears to have forgotten about. 
 

In what way has  Boris gambled ?  The UK poured a lot of money into the development of the vaccine and tied the manufacturers down to a water tight contract , before Frau Von Der Leyen had finished hanging the washing out.

Even Guy Verhofstadt has described the EU effort as a “ fiasco”.

The truth is you are trying to denigrate the U.K. effort on vaccines because you cannot confront the dogs breakfast The EU Commissioner made of it , with Macro compounding the error by trying to cast aspersions on the vaccine, without a shred of evidence. Meanwhile Hungary and the Czech Republic are forced to try to buy vaccine from a Russia to save their citizens.

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2 hours ago, Humphrey Appleby said:

Vaccines are more Blu's department, but the discrepancies in the clinical trials that were covered up for starters, plus production quality issues... https://www.ft.com/content/d0fd6c4c-939a-43c7-a9b9-47c8d3cab253

Instead of constantly jumping on ridiculous jingoist bandwagons in a silly attempt to score points, try learning about other sides of the story and why there might be concerns. Europeans are not idiots and have scientists that are just are clever as those in the UK, and there may be things that have come to light that Boris and Co want to gloss over in their own jingoistic rhetoric. 

The opposite of “ might be “is “ might not “ . The opposite of “may be “ is “may not “ . Simply putting up a link to a headline with the body of the article and the facts it relies on doesn’t take the discussion any further.

You still have to confront the fact that on 13th Feb Guy Verhofstadt described the EU’s performance on the vaccine as a fiasco. He said nothing about proceeding cautiously because of what scientists “ might “ have said. No doubt you claim to be better informed than him.

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4 hours ago, Humphrey Appleby said:

Of course it was unlikely to have happened before Brexit because goods didn't need to be cleared through customs if they came from the EU.

You've actually had conversations with DPD about whether their boxes have been opened by customs in the past 7 weeks? Okay... :rolleyes:

Ive spoken to several ex colleagues from DPD over the past 7 weeks, mostly drivers but also a depot manager and two warehouse staff. Inevitable that we would talk about Brexit given they had a week with no international traffic. 

First you're quoting Orion now you're talking like him, I thought you were better than that. 

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3 hours ago, Phlipphlopp said:

Why not just say a big thanks to the scientists who developed it ? Or , are you gutted they developed it ? We know you hate the UK and its pretty clear judging by many of your posts.

I think the scientists did a great job, but that doesn't mean that corners weren't cut in the rush to get it approved. The regulators glossed over a number of things - which may or may not be important - and they were undoubtedly under pressure from the government to do so. 

And the great irony of course, is that more than a few of scientists involved were actually not British. The very people the Brexiteers don't want to come to the UK... :rolleyes:

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1 hour ago, Vince said:

Inevitable that we would talk about Brexit given they had a week with no international traffic. 

Pretty clear why no boxes had to be opened then... :D

I'm sure you'll remember though - given your expertise on customs with respect to road haulage - that UK government didn't provision enough custom officials to do the now necessary checks on goods entering the UK, so have deferred most of these until 30 June 2021. :rolleyes:

https://www.avalara.com/vatlive/en/vat-news/uk-defers-brexit-customs-declarations-and-tariffs-6-months.html

Edited by Humphrey Appleby

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2 hours ago, E I Addio said:

The UK poured a lot of money into the development of the vaccine and tied the manufacturers down to a water tight contract , before Frau Von Der Leyen had finished hanging the washing out.

You make it out like the UK government magically paid for a vaccine to be created. The reality is that largely privately-funded biotech companies have been working on the underlying technology and production processes for over 30 years, but the big expense is by far the clinical trials. That's often the make-and-break for a drug because the third-party financiers have to be convinced it's worthwhile, so there's nothing unusual about those paying the piper calling the tune by getting the manufacturing rights.

It of course also helps if the regulator can be persuaded to overlook discrepancies in the trials that under normal circumstances would mean having to start over. 

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5 hours ago, Humphrey Appleby said:

Pretty clear why no boxes had to be opened then... :D

I'm sure you'll remember though - given your expertise on customs with respect to road haulage - that UK government didn't provision enough custom officials to do the now necessary checks on goods entering the UK, so have deferred most of these until 30 June 2021. :rolleyes:

https://www.avalara.com/vatlive/en/vat-news/uk-defers-brexit-customs-declarations-and-tariffs-6-months.html

Why no boxes were opened for a week. Nobody said no boxes will ever be opened, just that they haven't been.

You do know hauliers aren't the importers? From our point we have to make sure the correct documentation needed at the time accompanies the load, we've managed very well so far and I expect that to continue. Same old story, you can hunt around for potential problems and spend so much time worrying about possibilities that nothing gets done or you can sort out what needs doing and get on with it. 

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8 hours ago, Humphrey Appleby said:

You make it out like the UK government magically paid for a vaccine to be created. The reality is that largely privately-funded biotech companies have been working on the underlying technology and production processes for over 30 years, but the big expense is by far the clinical trials. That's often the make-and-break for a drug because the third-party financiers have to be convinced it's worthwhile, so there's nothing unusual about those paying the piper calling the tune by getting the manufacturing rights.

It of course also helps if the regulator can be persuaded to overlook discrepancies in the trials that under normal circumstances would mean having to start over. 

As always when you don’t have a coherent answer, you take what I say and add your own spin .  I said the UK government put a lot of money into the DEVELOPMENT of the (Covid) vaccine. Somehow you now make the jump to trying to say I am making out the UK government magically paid for it to be created .

I don’t know where you got that thought from but according to the Lancet the UK Government paid a lot of money for the DEVELOPMENT of the vaccine after identification of the pathogen. You are correct in saying saying the big expense ( or at least one of them) is the clinical trials but it is the task of raising sufficient funds for clinical trials that makes it a relatively slow process. What the UK Government did was basically speed the process up by bankrolling it far more than a commercial organisation would do in “normal”  circumstances.

As for the regulator being persuaded to overlook discrepancies in the trials, I repeat again  the EU regulator has approved it, as has 50 countries across four continents. 

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8 hours ago, Humphrey Appleby said:

And the great irony of course, is that more than a few of scientists involved were actually not British. The very people the Brexiteers don't want to come to the UK... :rolleyes:

Well, that lie proves the Brexiteers’ case.

Brexiteers welcome scientists and useful economic migrants from any country but not scroungers and criminals who had a right to come here merely because they were from the EU.

An epic fail, Humph.  :D

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9 hours ago, Humphrey Appleby said:

 

And the great irony of course, is that more than a few of scientists involved were actually not British. The very people the Brexiteers don't want to come to the UK... :rolleyes:

Nail. Head. Miss. By miles. By inserting complete untruths like that , you do yourself no favours. If you could find a few posts on here where people on my side of the political argument have said we dont want skilled people here that would be great.

Edited by Phlipphlopp
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Still the thread rolls on with the depressingly small minded ranting on.

The EU got it wrong on vaccine roll out. And were refreshingly quick to admit their errors. Can anyone imagine the UK Government actually taking responsibility for their own (almost daily) litany of cock-ups? Accountability is not something this Brexit Government does. 

It's says everything that whilst the UK becomes poorer (in every sense), the small-minded Brexiteers zoom in on celebrating the UK's vaccine success as "getting one over the EU". No wonder. If you have that mindset, there's little else for you or the off-shore owned, tax avoiding Brexit press to celebrate.

British science is among the very best in the world. That is something to celebrate. Why? Because they are collaborators par excellence. They attract (or at least could) the best talent in Europe and beyond and that's why they attract heavy investment and funding. Indeed Oxford University itself was award £56m in EU funding as recently as 2019https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2019-12-12-oxford-university-awarded-56-million-european-research-council-funding " to build up their teams and have far-reaching impact" 

Can anyone imagine the UK adopting such a rational and fair-minded adult approach when its relationship with that country was being unpicked? Not a chance. Lucky for us - and Oxford - that the EU didn't demonstrate the childish pettiness that has evolved into a national trait in the UK. 

We should all celebrate the success of British-based science. Everyone doing so should also bear in mind that the scientific community are incredibly pro-EU. They understand the benefit of international collaboration more than most. They see the bigger picture. These are people that make decisions based on analysis, evidence and data. There's a lot on this thread who could learn a lot from them. 

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