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The White Knight

European Union - In Or Out?

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2 minutes ago, falcace said:

It's says everything that whilst the UK becomes poorer (in every sense), the small-minded Brexiteers zoom in on celebrating the UK's vaccine success as "getting one over the EU". No wonder. If you have that mindset, there's little else for you or the off-shore owned, tax avoiding Brexit press to celebrate.

 

Of course , if this was the other way around , yourself and the other 5th columnist pro eu zealots would be screaming from the rooftops about how mad it was that we didnt join the eu vac scheme. Nice dig at the pro eu Guardian rag mind you .

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9 hours ago, Humphrey Appleby said:

I think the scientists did a great job, but that doesn't mean that corners weren't cut in the rush to get it approved. The regulators glossed over a number of things - which may or may not be important - and they were undoubtedly under pressure from the government to do so. 

And the great irony of course, is that more than a few of scientists involved were actually not British. The very people the Brexiteers don't want to come to the UK... :rolleyes:

BETTER late than never ... 

Emmanuel Macron said last night he would take the Oxford/AstraZeneca vaccine despite previously rubbishing the jab - although he would be waiting until next year at the current pace of a roll-out which has left France vulnerable to a third wave. Macron, 43, said that 'in view of the latest scientific studies, the efficacy of the AstraZeneca vaccine has been proven', having caused uproar last month by wrongly describing the jab as 'quasi-ineffective' in older people.

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20 minutes ago, falcace said:

 

It's says everything that whilst the UK becomes poorer (in every sense)

CARE to elaborate without including any Covid related issues...

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53 minutes ago, falcace said:

Still the thread rolls on with the depressingly small minded ranting on.

The EU got it wrong on vaccine roll out. And were refreshingly quick to admit their errors. Can anyone imagine the UK Government actually taking responsibility for their own (almost daily) litany of cock-ups? Accountability is not something this Brexit Government does. 

It's says everything that whilst the UK becomes poorer (in every sense), the small-minded Brexiteers zoom in on celebrating the UK's vaccine success as "getting one over the EU". No wonder. If you have that mindset, there's little else for you or the off-shore owned, tax avoiding Brexit press to celebrate.

British science is among the very best in the world. That is something to celebrate. Why? Because they are collaborators par excellence. They attract (or at least could) the best talent in Europe and beyond and that's why they attract heavy investment and funding. Indeed Oxford University itself was award £56m in EU funding as recently as 2019https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2019-12-12-oxford-university-awarded-56-million-european-research-council-funding " to build up their teams and have far-reaching impact" 

Can anyone imagine the UK adopting such a rational and fair-minded adult approach when its relationship with that country was being unpicked? Not a chance. Lucky for us - and Oxford - that the EU didn't demonstrate the childish pettiness that has evolved into a national trait in the UK. 

We should all celebrate the success of British-based science. Everyone doing so should also bear in mind that the scientific community are incredibly pro-EU. They understand the benefit of international collaboration more than most. They see the bigger picture. These are people that make decisions based on analysis, evidence and data. There's a lot on this thread who could learn a lot from them. 

 

So let me get this right, the UK contributed £320 million to the EU every week and you triumph the generous EU for giving us back one grant of £56 million?

And when did Brexit stop us collaborating with the rest of the scientific world?  That’s exactly what we want to do, whether with EU countries or others.

Why instead don’t you face up to the facts that it was the EU’s insidious transition from trading bloc to federalist state and from freedom of movement for workers to freedom to roam for all and sundry that caused Britain to hold a democratic vote on membership and your side lost?

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1 hour ago, falcace said:

Still the thread rolls on with the depressingly small minded ranting on.

The EU got it wrong on vaccine roll out. And were refreshingly quick to admit their errors.

 

 

  This is a discussion forum  and a number on here , notably HA have not been prepared to admit the EU got it wrong.

Can you point us to a link where the EU , that is the body not the persons within it have been quick to admit they got it wrong. Certainly Emanuel Macron was defiant about it until two days ago. 

 Is Guy Verhofstadt the only Remainer willing to confront the EU's failings? (telegraph.co.uk)

 It doesnt seem that  the EU does  accountability  either when it comes to getting it wrong as we saw with the fiasco over Article 16. Every government in the world likes to conceal its mistakes, some more so than others. Undoubtedly the British Government does, but you are deluding yourself if you think the EU is different from the rest. Its called politics.

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7 minutes ago, DC2 said:

So let me get this right, the UK contributed £320 million to the EU every week and you triumph the generous EU for giving us back one grant of £56 million?

And when did Brexit stop us collaborating with the rest of the scientific world?  That’s exactly what we want to do, whether with EU countries or others.

Parochialists such as yourself seem to fail to understand that big science needs to be multinational in scope in order to be effective, and that EU grants are given in the context of wider collaboration. Not just to fund the actual work, but to develop future relationships that bring the best people together. 

Whilst scientists have always, and will invariably continue to overlook petty nationalism in the interests of making the world a better place (unlike most politicians, particularly Brexit ones), but Brexit has greatly reduced the opportunities to collaborate in important research projects. Perhaps more concerningly though, scientists and researchers are predominantly internationalist in their outlook and have greater opportunities and mobility than most, so many simply don't want to work in a country where foreigners are not welcome and their contributions not appreciated. 

It's all very well saying that the UK can still do all this stuff from its own resources, but trying to get agreements with every potential country involved in every potential project is simply not effective. And the fact is that the UK has promised all sorts of largesses to all kinds of interest groups from the supposed 'EU dividend' - such as the NHS, fisher folk, farmers, 'The North', and of course the ongoing contribution to EU programmes that the UK has committed to - that there's no guarantees that research (which was one area where the UK received a net benefit from EU) will get anything like the same funding, especially with COVID having hit the economy too.

At a time when the value of science and research has been clearly demonstrated, which the Tories are happy to wrap in the cloak of jingoism, the reality is that despite the pronouncements from Boris, funding cuts and the re-packaging of existing spending has largely been the order of the day so far. The man is an unbelievable bullsh**ter, yet so many suck it up. :rolleyes:

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2 minutes ago, E I Addio said:

 Can you point us to a link where the EU , that is the body not the persons within it have been quick to admit they got it wrong.

Can you point to a link where the UK government has admitted it was wrong in how it handed COVID and caused the deaths of 122,000 people (give or take a few million if we dispute the cause)?

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22 minutes ago, Humphrey Appleby said:

Can you point to a link where the UK government has admitted it was wrong in how it handed COVID and caused the deaths of 122,000 people (give or take a few million if we dispute the cause)?

 No, because we are at this point and in reply to falcace the claim that the EU a quick to fess up to their mistakes.

As to the UK governments handling of covid I have given my opinion previously. The UK government clearly have made mistakes, some unavoidable, some understandable and some unforgiveable. There will undoubtedly be a full enquiry when these issues are determined. 

We are, however still stuck with falceaces claim ,  that the EU were quick to admit their mistakes.  A few individuals within that outfit have admitted mistakes were made but only in a personal capacity.   Hence it is barely two weeks ago that Guy Verhofstadt said that those (like him ) who love the EU project should be its most vociferous critics when things are wrong .  That was when he called the EU vaccine rollout a fiasco. That is fair comment, unlike those on here who consistently try to justify everything , even to the extent of yourself trying to justify the Article 16 farce by trying to tell us that it was due to a mistake in translation when even Frau Von der Leyen was trying to spin that one :rolleyes:

Edited by E I Addio

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19 minutes ago, Humphrey Appleby said:

Can you point to a link where the UK government has admitted it was wrong in how it handed COVID and caused the deaths of 122,000 people (give or take a few million if we dispute the cause)?

MAYBE because there is no actual proof that is the case. It may be your opinion and that of many others but there is no irrefutable evidence that the death toll would have been less had the British government acted differently. It is all conjecture and opinion.

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31 minutes ago, Humphrey Appleby said:

Parochialists such as yourself seem to fail to understand that big science needs to be multinational in scope in order to be effective, 

There you are.  I stopped you there because you are replying to me saying:

“And when did Brexit stop us collaborating with the rest of the scientific world?  That’s exactly what we want to do, whether with EU countries or others.“

So I don’t fail to understand, do I?  :D

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16 minutes ago, E I Addio said:

 No, because we are at this point and in reply to falcace the claim that the EU a quick to fess up to their mistakes.

As to the UK governments handling of covid I have given my opinion previously. The UK government clearly have made mistakes, some unavoidable, some understandable and some unforgiveable. Their will undoubtedly be a full enquiry when these issues are determined. 

I wouldn't entirely disagree, but the UK government - with the exception of the Oxford vaccine - has been reactive rather than proactive throughout, whilst implementing ridiculous  kneejerk reactions that have been completely ineffective.

Conversely, do you think EU politicians have really gone out of their way to deliberately restrict vaccination? There's a limited supply and they judged they should take a more cautious (i.e. proper) approach to regulation because they had nothing like the number of deaths as the UK.

Yet Brexiteers, in their desperate attempt to distract attention from the unfolding disaster that's Brexit, see fit to score jingoistic points about a pandemic (probably) of nobody's making. Invariably such things are victims of bureaucratic screw ups of which the UK is far from immune either.

Edited by Humphrey Appleby

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5 minutes ago, DC2 said:

There you are.  I stopped you there because you are replying to me saying:

“And when did Brexit stop us collaborating with the rest of the scientific world?  That’s exactly what we want to do, whether with EU countries or others.“

So I don’t fail to understand, do I?  :D

For some reason I thought I was replying to Dashcam - sorry about that - but if the cap fits... :D

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3 minutes ago, Humphrey Appleby said:

I wouldn't entirely disagree, but the UK government - with the exception of the Oxford vaccine - has been reactive rather than proactive throughout, whilst implementing ridiculous  kneejerk reactions that have been completely ineffective.

Conversely, do you think EU politicians have really gone out of their way to deliberately restrict vaccination? There's a limited supply and they judged they should take a more cautious (i.e. proper) approach to regulation because they had nothing like the number of deaths as the UK.

Yet Brexiteers, in their desperate attempt to distract attention from the unfolding disaster that's Brexit, see fit to score jingoistic points about a pandemic (probably) of nobody's making. Invariably such things are victims of bureaucratic screw ups of which the UK is far from immune either.

What?

The EU has had more deaths than the UK.

And more per million in some countries.

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7 minutes ago, Humphrey Appleby said:

For some reason I thought I was replying to Dashcam - sorry about that - but if the cap fits... :D

If I’m to wear your cap you’ll have to add a “C2” to it.  :D

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16 minutes ago, Humphrey Appleby said:

I wouldn't entirely disagree, but the UK government - with the exception of the Oxford vaccine - has been reactive rather than proactive throughout, whilst implementing ridiculous  kneejerk reactions that have been completely ineffective.

Conversely, do you think EU politicians have really gone out of their way to deliberately restrict vaccination? There's a limited supply and they judged they should take a more cautious (i.e. proper) approach to regulation because they had nothing like the number of deaths as the UK.

Yet Brexiteers, in their desperate attempt to distract attention from the unfolding disaster that's Brexit, see fit to score jingoistic points about a pandemic (probably) of nobody's making. Invariably such things are victims of bureaucratic screw ups of which the UK is far from immune either.

It’s not a question of scoring jingoistic points.  It’s a good start to have the comfort of vaccine but we are not safe until we are all safe- that means everybody. It is disconcerting that the EU has made a shambles of their side when we still need to be safe to travel. Standstead Airport had six arrivals in a whole day last week. It was like a ghost town. It must be costing a fortune. That is why it is in our interest that the EU is also safe, but it cannot be denied that Von Der Leyen, who has been facing calls to resign since last May, has made a dogs breakfast of the whole thing, as has the unknown Greek Tart who has been foisted on Europe as EU Commissioner for health.

No I dont think the EU politicians have deliberately gone out of their way to restrict vaccination, but I do think the last hand doesn’t know what the right hand is doing.  It’s what happens when organisations get too big. It’s seems likely though that Macrons disingenuous outbursts are more to do with getting re elected in France rather than concerns for the mere proles of the wider EU.

It’s not a desperate distraction from Brexit , it’s something that should concern us all, if we want to be reasonably free from Covid.

 

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