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The White Knight

European Union - In Or Out?

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28 minutes ago, E I Addio said:

I don’t know of any but I see plenty of people in the 25-35 age group dropping their kids off at school in Range Rovers , people carriers, Beemers , Mercs , and in one case a huge Teslar, so there plenty of young people living a comfortable life style but probably up to their ears in debt, instead of keeping  something back for a rainy day

Nowadays most parents work through necessity, so need (at least before COVID) a car to take their kids to school before they head off to work. I'm assuming you must live in a very affluent area as I certainly don't see those sorts of vehicles dropping off kids.

If they're living in debt, it's probably because they actually need a car (if not two) to live in the modern world, and have taken out a huge mortgage to buy a modest house from a retiree who's now living off the proceeds... :rolleyes:

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When I see and hear people talk about final salary pension schemes I wonder whether many have any idea. What the Inland Revenue allow you to have and what most schemes actually provide are two entirely different things.

Edited by wealdstone
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22 minutes ago, E I Addio said:

If they haven’t paid enough to cover their retirement costs then clearly they are not going to be having this life of luxury that you imagine.

Where I worked in the past, some older staff were on 1/40th final salary schemes, so have basically retired or will shortly be retiring on their full salary at the age of 60. I'd imagine the time servers would be on a minimum of GBP 40k and anything upwards of that. 

This was subsequently downgraded to a 1/80th scheme, which I was on - so would have been retiring on approximately half salary from 65 if I was still working there. Still quite a reasonable income, but then for people under a certain age (such as myself), it was further downgraded to a contributions-only scheme.

Add in the fact that since I've been working, state pensionable age has been increased from 65 to 68, and you can see why younger people are resentful. They're doing nothing different or working less hard, yet are have far poorer expectations upon retirement. 

I'm lucky in that I've had decent earnings and been able to put money aside for such things, but despite that it's still not a realistic proposition to be able to retire at 52. You'd basically need a pension of a million quid to do that these days, and even then you'd only get about 20k per year. 

Edited by Humphrey Appleby
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24 minutes ago, E I Addio said:

All this of course has absolutely no relevance to Brexit, which was what Pieman claimed.

The relevance is that many of retirees who've done very well out of the system since the UK has been in the EU, voted against the economic interests of the country and the younger generations who are now paying for their (state) pensions. 

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14 hours ago, Tsunami said:

Bollocks. I started in life from very poor family and lost my father when I was 12. Due to my Mothers health deteriorating shortly afterwards I became the family bread winner doing 3 paper rounds for the next few years. I started an apprenticeship at 16 instead of going for A levels and Uni, due to family financial reasons. I did well at day school and night school which I attended until I was 27 year old achieving certain trade qualifications and general management. I gave up my trade and went into Methods Study  and management, changing jobs 3 times and eventually ended up as a Senior Manager with British Gas and 'took my bit' at 52 year old due to company restructuring. I received a pension immediately, with a levelling option, and haven't worked since. As Frank Sinatra used to say "I did it my way", and my career was successful due to me working hard, overcoming poverty,  investing money and buying 3 houses. I have had very little help in my life with the exception of used clothing parcels from sympathetic relatives in Canada  in my early teens. I apologise to nobody, including you,  who begrudges me my success and wealth that allows me and my family to live a very good life. During all my working life I was paying large taxes, which of course helps to pay the bills of those not as fortunate to me and I have no problems with that. I've been there and appreciated it. I qualify to most of the items above  you accuse others like me of obtaining, so if that makes me sad with a privileged life I think it is the likes of you and other jealous  individuals who are the sad people in life. Successful people are one of the main reasons why a country like the UK is successful and affluent, and due to the heavy taxation that pay which allows others to get financial help when they need it. From your general rants on here and your obvious envy of successful people, I doubt you will understand all that.     

As others have said, well done on working hard and making a life for yourself. That's exactly how it should work.

You've taken this personally. Try not to, and think how the 20 year old you would fare today instead.

The point is that the ladder society provided for you has since had multiple rungs kicked out from it, all for the benefit of those at the top of the ladder already. The same opportunities do not exist...and if you were starting out now...or even 10 years ago, you would not have the same success. People are having to work hard (or even harder in the 24 hour digital world) just to get by, never mind get on in life. A third of 35-44 year olds are unable to afford a home now and are renting. The outlook is even bleaker for millennials. And Brexit has kicked more rungs out of the ladder.

And the kicker is that the boomer generation has voted this environment in time after time, denying subsequent generations the opportunities that existed for them. It pains me to say it, but my own folks are a classic case. They got on the property ladder when first married  aged 21 when the average house price was only double the national average annual income. Dad was a plumber and mum had the odd part-time job, but by and large was a stay-at-home mum with two kids. My dad has worked hard and they've made a decent life, a couple of cruises a year, mortgage paid off years ago, children through University all covered by grants and three vehicles (don't ask!). A similar couple today would be struggling. And yes, they vote Tory, voted for Brexit, read the Daily Express and consistently moan about immigration...and live in Devon where they never encounter any immigrants anyway!

The sadness is the generation who had it all, benefitted from the sacrifices of previous generations and huge improvements in health, education and housing have not passed the same opportunities on.

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9 hours ago, Humphrey Appleby said:

The relevance is that many of retirees who've done very well out of the system since the UK has been in the EU, voted against the economic interests of the country and the younger generations who are now paying for their (state) pensions. 

...as my parents were paying their parents state pensions and as I'm paying for my parent(s). As I keep re-iterating 1 in 4 people within the age group of 18 - 38 chose not to vote during the referendum. I can't take responsiblity for their apathy and non interest in their future.

Edited by steve roberts
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16 minutes ago, falcace said:

As others have said, well done on working hard and making a life for yourself. That's exactly how it should work.

You've taken this personally. Try not to, and think how the 20 year old you would fare today instead.

The point is that the ladder society provided for you has since had multiple rungs kicked out from it, all for the benefit of those at the top of the ladder already. The same opportunities do not exist...and if you were starting out now...or even 10 years ago, you would not have the same success. People are having to work hard (or even harder in the 24 hour digital world) just to get by, never mind get on in life. A third of 35-44 year olds are unable to afford a home now and are renting. The outlook is even bleaker for millennials. And Brexit has kicked more rungs out of the ladder.

And the kicker is that the boomer generation has voted this environment in time after time, denying subsequent generations the opportunities that existed for them. It pains me to say it, but my own folks are a classic case. They got on the property ladder when first married  aged 21 when the average house price was only double the national average annual income. Dad was a plumber and mum had the odd part-time job, but by and large was a stay-at-home mum with two kids. My dad has worked hard and they've made a decent life, a couple of cruises a year, mortgage paid off years ago, children through University all covered by grants and three vehicles (don't ask!). A similar couple today would be struggling. And yes, they vote Tory, voted for Brexit, read the Daily Express and consistently moan about immigration...and live in Devon where they never encounter any immigrants anyway!

The sadness is the generation who had it all, benefitted from the sacrifices of previous generations and huge improvements in health, education and housing have not passed the same opportunities on.

I think you've summed it up admirably...

Edited by Humphrey Appleby

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9 hours ago, Humphrey Appleby said:

Nowadays most parents work through necessity, so need (at least before COVID) a car to take their kids to school before they head off to work. I'm assuming you must live in a very affluent area as I certainly don't see those sorts of vehicles dropping off kids.

If they're living in debt, it's probably because they actually need a car (if not two) to live in the modern world, and have taken out a huge mortgage to buy a modest house from a retiree who's now living off the proceeds... :rolleyes:

 What constitutes “necessity “ is a matter of opinion. “ Need “ for some people is “ greed “ for others. The best thing you can give a child is your time. Buying children off with money instead of the parents time has produced the materialistic generation we now have.

 As for it being an affluent area, like most of the South East these days you pay a lot of money for not much. London is the same. However I don’t think the present young generation are necessarily worse of than those previously. If you need a car for work or to take the kids to school it doesn’t have to be a Range Rover or BMW. Plenty of members on this forum manage quite well on second hand Ford Escorts. The point about these sort of expensive cars is that if people can afford them it gives the lie to the idea that all young people have terrible struggles to get anywhere, if they can’t afford them the it’s their own fault I’d they get into debt.

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20 minutes ago, steve roberts said:

...as my parents were paying their parents state pensions and as I'm paying for my parent(s). As I keep re-iterating 1 in 4 people within the age group of 18 - 38 chose not to vote during the referendum. I can't take responsiblity for their apathy and non interest in their future.

Spot on. 

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9 hours ago, Humphrey Appleby said:

The relevance is that many of retirees who've done very well out of the system since the UK has been in the EU, voted against the economic interests of the country and the younger generations who are now paying for their (state) pensions. 

 

31 minutes ago, steve roberts said:

...as my parents were paying their parents state pensions and as I'm paying for my parent(s). As I keep re-iterating 1 in 4 people within the age group of 18 - 38 chose not to vote during the referendum. I can't take responsiblity for their apathy and non interest in their future.

In other words the retirees could be bothered to vote but the 18-38’s couldn’t yet the retirees are somehow expected to vote remain to cancel out the fact that the 18-38’s didn’t vote at all . Lol. 

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10 hours ago, Humphrey Appleby said:

Nowadays most parents work through necessity, so need (at least before COVID) a car to take their kids to school before they head off to work. I'm assuming you must live in a very affluent area as I certainly don't see those sorts of vehicles dropping off kids.

If they're living in debt, it's probably because they actually need a car (if not two) to live in the modern world, and have taken out a huge mortgage to buy a modest house from a retiree who's now living off the proceeds... :rolleyes:

I used to be caretaker at our local community centre and the car park doubled as a school car park and many children were being dropped off by parents in 4x4's and/or Chelsea Tractors in many cars I would imagine that are leased and not owned.

Edited by steve roberts
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2 minutes ago, E I Addio said:

In other words the retirees could be bothered to vote but the 18-38’s couldn’t yet the retirees are somehow expected to vote remain to cancel out the fact that the 18-38’s didn’t vote at all . Lol. 

They should be voting for the economic interests of the country that afforded them with their comfortable lifestyle.

It's long been clear you're an 'I'm alright Jack' Brexiteer, so enjoy it whilst the national economy heads down the pan for everyone else...:rolleyes:

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5 minutes ago, Humphrey Appleby said:

They should be voting for the economic interests of the country that afforded them with their comfortable lifestyle.

It's long been clear you're an 'I'm alright Jack' Brexiteer, so enjoy it whilst the national economy heads down the pan for everyone else...:rolleyes:

...but Humph if those that didn't bother to vote (across all age groups and not neccessarily just the young) how can those that bothered be held accountable?

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5 minutes ago, steve roberts said:

...but Humph if those that didn't bother to vote (across all age groups and not neccessarily just the young) how can those that bothered be held accountable?

Brexit is something that should never have been put to the vote, where the issues were dumbed down to silliness and the consequences not understood by much of the population. 

You're now seeing the chaos faced by exporters, diminished opportunities for trade, and important industries unable to find workers, whilst violence escalates in Northern Ireland. And it'll only get worse when COVID can no longer be used as an excuse.

All so predictable though...

Edited by Humphrey Appleby
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5 minutes ago, Humphrey Appleby said:

Brexit is something that should never have been put to the vote, where the issues were dumbed down to silliness and the consequences not understood by much of the population. 

You're now seeing the chaos faced by exporters, diminished opportunities for trade, and important industries unable to find workers, whilst violence escalates in Northern Ireland. And it'll only get worse when COVID can no longer be used as an excuse.

All so predictable though...

The dabate as to why the referendum came about has been well documented on here...with varying degrees of reasoning and personally I'm not wishing to repeat my personal stance on why it came about. No doubt history will look back on events for future generations to ponder over.

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