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The White Knight

European Union - In Or Out?

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1 hour ago, Humphrey Appleby said:

I'll save you the trouble of finding a suitable quote... ;)

 

Trust you to miss the point as usual.

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12 minutes ago, E I Addio said:

Trust you to miss the point as usual.

The country's a bloody mess isn't it? 

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Merkel wasted $600 billion on ''climate''... electricity prices soared (2nd highest in Europe)... her policies have produced an ongoing energy crisis... one in which coal-rich Germany has become dependent on gas supplied by Putin.

The West is one big clown show, at home and abroad...

 

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15 minutes ago, Blupanther said:

Merkel wasted $600 billion on ''climate''... electricity prices soared (2nd highest in Europe)... her policies have produced an ongoing energy crisis... one in which coal-rich Germany has become dependent on gas supplied by Putin.

The West is one big clown show, at home and abroad...

 

What is this 600 billion dollars then ? Give us a link 

She pledged 60 billion in 2019 and the Greens pledged 600 billion as an election promise

The Greens, on the other hand, say the current low-interest environment is too good an opportunity to miss. New and cheap loans will allow a far bigger investment in the green economy, so the party has pledged to spend €500 billion ($600 billion) over the next decade on the "socio-ecological transformation" of the economy.

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6 hours ago, YerRopes said:

The country's a bloody mess isn't it? 

The whole world is in a mess, and likely to get worse as it’s population rises, natural resources diminish, and greed increases. Massive wealth for some, while there is about a billion people living on less than two dollars a day. 

Edited by E I Addio
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22 hours ago, dj350z said:

How much evidence do you need other than the government performing yet another u-turn to grant short term visas to EU truck drivers? I remember being told there are plenty non EU nationals willing to come and work here - what happened to them?

I supplied an article complete with actual facts and figures to support the point of view. The government offering 5000 visas amidst a small shortage of tanker drivers to appease the remain supporting press means nothing. The press caused this panic and the answer is very simple, improve conditions for drivers so the 1000s who have chosen other careers want to return.

Firstly 5000 is a drop in the ocean as far as the total driver shortage.

Secondly the tanker driver shortage needs ADR qualified drivers who will be already being well paid in their homelands because of the shortage of drivers throughout the EU.

Thirdly the reality is that BP announced that there would be a rationing of supplies to a minimal number of garages and yet again the press have created panic where there needs to be none. The shortages at the moment are entirely caused by the selfish morons who also panicked and stockpiled toilet rolls, once they have filled their cars and every empty vessel they own normality will return pretty swiftly. Unless of course the tanker drivers can't get to work because they can't get fuel for their cars! These morons are of all ages and will be from both sides of the Brexit vote in reality.

Finally we didn't throw out 1000's of EU drivers, they chose not to fill in some forms and stay, mostly because they had never intended their long term future to be in the UK. There are still tens of thousands of EU drivers (and other workers) living and working in the UK quite happily. I am sure somebody will come up with a case where somebody was mistakenly forced to leave but the general truth is that it was their own option.

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17 minutes ago, Vince said:

I supplied an article complete with actual facts and figures to support the point of view. The government offering 5000 visas amidst a small shortage of tanker drivers to appease the remain supporting press means nothing. The press caused this panic and the answer is very simple, improve conditions for drivers so the 1000s who have chosen other careers want to return.

Firstly 5000 is a drop in the ocean as far as the total driver shortage.

Secondly the tanker driver shortage needs ADR qualified drivers who will be already being well paid in their homelands because of the shortage of drivers throughout the EU.

Thirdly the reality is that BP announced that there would be a rationing of supplies to a minimal number of garages and yet again the press have created panic where there needs to be none. The shortages at the moment are entirely caused by the selfish morons who also panicked and stockpiled toilet rolls, once they have filled their cars and every empty vessel they own normality will return pretty swiftly. Unless of course the tanker drivers can't get to work because they can't get fuel for their cars! These morons are of all ages and will be from both sides of the Brexit vote in reality.

Finally we didn't throw out 1000's of EU drivers, they chose not to fill in some forms and stay, mostly because they had never intended their long term future to be in the UK. There are still tens of thousands of EU drivers (and other workers) living and working in the UK quite happily. I am sure somebody will come up with a case where somebody was mistakenly forced to leave but the general truth is that it was their own option.

Rationally those that left did so for a number of reasons. I doubt a few forms were the main ones. The whole anti-EU atmospheres that was stoked not only by the odious Farage and his followers, but latched onto by a more middle of the road section, then the rise of attacks on foreigners after the referendum added to the feeling they just weren’t wanted and husbands and even mothers would worry about the safety of their family/ children. Even if it was stoked up by the media to an extent, the figures do show this was real. And it must have been the final straw for a lot. Of course I am also sure that Poland’s economy getting better and the call from their politicians for emigrants to come home, they were needed also had an effect

The bottom line though, that it was all based on half truths and lies and played into the hands of xenophobic politicians and voters. The country even after 4 years wasn’t prepared. And I warned a number of times on here that the UK was leaving just at a time when it was important to be in the EU, not casting themselves adrift

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35 minutes ago, iris123 said:

Rationally those that left did so for a number of reasons. I doubt a few forms were the main ones. The whole anti-EU atmospheres that was stoked not only by the odious Farage and his followers, but latched onto by a more middle of the road section, then the rise of attacks on foreigners after the referendum added to the feeling they just weren’t wanted and husbands and even mothers would worry about the safety of their family/ children. Even if it was stoked up by the media to an extent, the figures do show this was real. And it must have been the final straw for a lot. Of course I am also sure that Poland’s economy getting better and the call from their politicians for emigrants to come home, they were needed also had an effect

The bottom line though, that it was all based on half truths and lies and played into the hands of xenophobic politicians and voters. The country even after 4 years wasn’t prepared. And I warned a number of times on here that the UK was leaving just at a time when it was important to be in the EU, not casting themselves adrift

To be fair I made absolutely no suggestion that filling in forms was a reason for leaving, the main reasons I hear about from those who left, those still considering leaving and those staying is that the economy and wages have improved at home therefore making being away less beneficial. For most of those gone or going that I know they also never intended to stay in the UK, most having stayed longer than they originally intended it would seem from the conversations I've had.

I have no doubt that some felt they were treated badly by the Brexit vote, equally some fully understood and agreed with it in my experience.

Whatever the reasons for some leaving the effect on the HGV driver shortage is noticeable but minimal in comparison to the effect of Covid restrictions and there has been a very significant shortage for a number of years. The effect of leaving the EU on the current supposed petrol shortage is near zero. 

So talking of lies and half truths (which were undeniably used by the Leave campaign at times but equally so by the Remain one) this continued blaming of Brexit for every situation reeks of them. Particularly considering it comes at the same time as by far the largest crisis for social and economic life in the UK (and the EU) since WW2.

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Grant Schapps and the horrible IDS blaming the Road Haulage Association for HGV driver shortage. 

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2 minutes ago, Vince said:

So talking of lies and half truths (which were undeniably used by the Leave campaign at times but equally so by the Remain one) this continued blaming of Brexit for every situation reeks of them. Particularly considering it comes at the same time as by far the largest crisis for social and economic life in the UK (and the EU) since WW2.

I think most realise the driver shortage is not entirely down to Brexit, but Brexit has undeniably exacerbated the situation.

What it has given lie to though, is that EU drivers were putting British drivers out of work. If many thousands of EU drivers were working in the UK and the industry was still many thousands short, then clearly there were other factors that nothing to do with the EU. Just as British drivers have not filled the gap left by EU workers leaving.

As to why EU workers decided to leave - if you're constantly hearing that your presence and contribution is not desired or even resented, why on earth would you want to stay? Indeed, why should any worker have to commit to a particular country for life anyway - they should be able to take their skills and labour as and where it's needed at any given time. That somehow workers are looked down upon because they do, sums up precisely the parochial attitude of many of the Brexit Brigade. I seem to recall Thatcher told people to get on their bikes, yet some only seem to think they should only cycle as far as the parish bounds...

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26 minutes ago, Vince said:

To be fair I made absolutely no suggestion that filling in forms was a reason for leaving, the main reasons I hear about from those who left, those still considering leaving and those staying is that the economy and wages have improved at home therefore making being away less beneficial. For most of those gone or going that I know they also never intended to stay in the UK, most having stayed longer than they originally intended it would seem from the conversations I've had.

I have no doubt that some felt they were treated badly by the Brexit vote, equally some fully understood and agreed with it in my experience.

Whatever the reasons for some leaving the effect on the HGV driver shortage is noticeable but minimal in comparison to the effect of Covid restrictions and there has been a very significant shortage for a number of years. The effect of leaving the EU on the current supposed petrol shortage is near zero. 

So talking of lies and half truths (which were undeniably used by the Leave campaign at times but equally so by the Remain one) this continued blaming of Brexit for every situation reeks of them. Particularly considering it comes at the same time as by far the largest crisis for social and economic life in the UK (and the EU) since WW2.

It is very possible some, even a lot never intended to stay, but I would imagine, just like many from the West Indies for instance, their intention was to stay until they could retire and move back home on a good pension. But I would also think it true that many of those that came in the 60s and 70s have in the subsequent decades changed their mind and feel more at home in the UK than they do in their homeland

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1 hour ago, Vince said:

I supplied an article complete with actual facts and figures to support the point of view. The government offering 5000 visas amidst a small shortage of tanker drivers to appease the remain supporting press means nothing. The press caused this panic and the answer is very simple, improve conditions for drivers so the 1000s who have chosen other careers want to return.

Firstly 5000 is a drop in the ocean as far as the total driver shortage.

Secondly the tanker driver shortage needs ADR qualified drivers who will be already being well paid in their homelands because of the shortage of drivers throughout the EU.

Thirdly the reality is that BP announced that there would be a rationing of supplies to a minimal number of garages and yet again the press have created panic where there needs to be none. The shortages at the moment are entirely caused by the selfish morons who also panicked and stockpiled toilet rolls, once they have filled their cars and every empty vessel they own normality will return pretty swiftly. Unless of course the tanker drivers can't get to work because they can't get fuel for their cars! These morons are of all ages and will be from both sides of the Brexit vote in reality.

Finally we didn't throw out 1000's of EU drivers, they chose not to fill in some forms and stay, mostly because they had never intended their long term future to be in the UK. There are still tens of thousands of EU drivers (and other workers) living and working in the UK quite happily. I am sure somebody will come up with a case where somebody was mistakenly forced to leave but the general truth is that it was their own option.

Just to add to Vinces comments:-

1. Only BP announced that they had delivery problems, none of the other fuel companies. It was the press and the lemmings that compounded it. 

2 . In addition to the ADR  certificate I think the tanker drivers also need a CPC certificate.  I stand to be corrected but as far as I am aware these certificates have to be obtained at the drivers expense and have to be renewed every 5 years.If that’s correct then the only foreign drivers likely to bother with the training are those that see there long term future here. 

3. Tanker driving in particular is a very skilled job. With 42,000 litres of volatile fuel on board you are basically driving a mobile bomb.  I can remember the time when you needed 3 O levels to get a job with Esso, since then the work has been sent out to subcontractors and gradually over the last 20 years terms and conditions have been eroded by the “ hire and fire “ culture” .making the job less and less attractive.

4. According to the Government tanker drivers earn £45,000 a year , but according to the Unite Union the average is £33,000 a year , which doesn’t sound much to me for the sort of responsible job it it is.

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I thought Tesco had problems as well ?

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Edwin Atema, head of research and enforcement at the Federation of Dutch Trade Unions, which represents drivers across the EU and Europe, told the Today Programme bluntly that:

The EU workers we speak to will not go to the UK for a short-term visa to help the UK out of the rubbish they created themselves.

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52 minutes ago, Humphrey Appleby said:

I think most realise the driver shortage is not entirely down to Brexit, but Brexit has undeniably exacerbated the situation.

What it has given lie to though, is that EU drivers were putting British drivers out of work. If many thousands of EU drivers were working in the UK and the industry was still many thousands short, then clearly there were other factors that nothing to do with the EU. Just as British drivers have not filled the gap left by EU workers leaving.

As to why EU workers decided to leave - if you're constantly hearing that your presence and contribution is not desired or even resented, why on earth would you want to stay? Indeed, why should any worker have to commit to a particular country for life anyway - they should be able to take their skills and labour as and where it's needed at any given time. That somehow workers are looked down upon because they do, sums up precisely the parochial attitude of many of the Brexit Brigade. I seem to recall Thatcher told people to get on their bikes, yet some only seem to think they should only cycle as far as the parish bounds...

If you listen to almost any lorry driver talk it is not just foreign drivers that are treated like dirt. Major complaints are things like not being allowed to use the toilet when they make deliveries, poor facilities for overnight stops, no showers when they are away for a week.being away from home for a week sleeping in their cabs without secure overnight parking while carrying a load worth thousands of pounds , and many many others. That’s why even British drivers are leaving the industry . That’s why the average age of a lorry driver is 55 and rising. To claim this is due to the parochial attitude of the Brexit Brigade is typical of your pathetic bigotry. The problem has been deteriorating for years, and is symptomatic  of the deteriorating attitude in much of British culture.

Brexit didn’t cause corruption in the Police, it didn’t cause the Post Office to persecute people and have them imprisoned when they knew they were innocent, it didn’t cause corruption and cover ups in the BBC , and it didn’t cause MP’s to fiddle their expenses. Brexit didn’t cause Keith Vaz and others to bully their staff

If our politicians now think it is OK to openly call others “vile “ and “scum” , without apology, it tells you all you need to know about the direction this country is heading , with or without Brexit. It was , incidently a Remainer that used that language

This country has a major underlying societal and cultural problem that is getting worse. For you to claim it’s part of the parochial attitude of a certain section of society that happens to disagree with you shows you are part of the problem.

 

Edited by E I Addio
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