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The White Knight

European Union - In Or Out?

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4 minutes ago, Tim G said:

But those problems you quote were already there whilst we were in the EU. 
I didn’t realise poverty and social problems only started this year, thanks for pointing that out.

Erm I think they have. Most councils are virtually bankrupt. The EU Social Fund piled a significant amount of money into deprived areas which has stopped that has and will not be replaced. I don't think sarcasm is appropriate but obviously your default due to that lack of a cohesive answer. So shortages of Labour was been an issue before 2021? The referendum was about immigration and dislike of foreigners i.e. bigoted, narrow minded, island mentality that should be consigned to the 19th century where it belongs. Yes poverty has always been around, Brexit has amplified it.

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1 hour ago, Pieman72 said:

Erm I think they have. Most councils are virtually bankrupt. The EU Social Fund piled a significant amount of money into deprived areas which has stopped that has and will not be replaced. I don't think sarcasm is appropriate but obviously your default due to that lack of a cohesive answer. So shortages of Labour was been an issue before 2021? The referendum was about immigration and dislike of foreigners i.e. bigoted, narrow minded, island mentality that should be consigned to the 19th century where it belongs. Yes poverty has always been around, Brexit has amplified it.

Councils have been claiming about a lack of funding before this year, it’s not a new problem. We will miss the EU social fund, that is one point you are correct on.

It’s tough to say if COVID or Brexit is to blame for all Labour shortages, in some areas like fruit picking and hospitality I would agree it’s Brexit but not in all instances. The way some companies acted during the pandemic has caused them problems now.

It would be nice if you could make a post without throwing in accusations about people being racist because they voted Brexit or HGV drivers being thick or blaming people that voted Brexit on global warming.

People that voted Brexit may have got things wrong, I wouldn’t vote for it again but they are not to blame for all that you try and blame them for.

 

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I did canvass for Remain and may I say what an awful campaign the ran. Everyone I canvassed who wanted to leave the EU cited immigration as the reason for their decision in fact they went further blaming certain ethnic minorities and citing we're 'full up'. It was heartbreaking to see the hatred and they wanted to inflict damage and didn't care about the consequences. I have to say the majority of these individuals did exhibit a lack of critical thinking.

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7 hours ago, Pieman72 said:

I don't know what sort of answer is that? You and your cohorts thought Brexit would take Britain back to the glory days of the past. 

You made a sweeping statement, I just wanted more clarity. I voted remain so you clearly don’t know what you are talking about.

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I'm only reacting to statistical evidence and posts on here. I really don't want to cause offence but this country is in a serious mess that's getting worse. It's like a self destruct mechanism perpetrated by people who will be more likely to feel the consequences than any other group in society. Why?

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The EU is a decent liberal well structured organisation that influenced climate, health, and environmental standards while supporting the poorest communities in the UK and was influential in 25 years of peace in Ireland. allied to this giving us access to substantial supplies of power. So what did we do 'kick them in the teeth' and walk away satisfied it was 'job done'. What a dreadful attitude and still the EU are willing to negotiate and enable a peaceful Europe. Oh Brexiteers what have you done it's such dire mistake that will consign us to years of disruption and chaos.

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/eu-energy-ministers-luxembourg-uk-brexit-gas-298304/

Edited by Pieman72
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3 minutes ago, Pieman72 said:

The EU is a decent liberal well structured organisation that influenced climate, health, and environmental standards while supporting the poorest communities in the UK and was influential in 25 years of peace in Ireland. allied to this giving us access to substantial supplies of power. So what did we do 'kick them in the teeth' and walk away satisfied it was 'job done'. What a dreadful attitude and still the EU are willing to negotiate and enable a peaceful Europe. Oh Brexiteers what have you done it's such dire mistake that will consign us to years of disruption and chaos.

The EU is also a hot bed of corruption that has wasted billions on nonsense over the years, it is not and never has been some sort of organisation heading for paradise.

I imagine the vast majority, like myself, who voted to leave the EU did so because they don't like the way it has changed and is now headed since we joined. Had it stayed a trading union rather than a massive self serving political enterprise then the vote to stay in would have been overwhelming had it ever been necessary.

Again we see that all Brexit supporters are racist but that is just biased nonsense in the same way that the shortage of HGV drivers is very little to do with leaving the EU despite the assurances from remainers that Brexit is responsible for every problem. It seems to have escaped the remain camps notice that we have just had by far the biggest disruption to all business and industry since the second world war.

Brexit has created problems, some of which are down to leaving and some of which are down to sheer bloody mindedness of officials who are doing everything to prevent a smooth transition. Unlike you I can't claim to speak for all leave voters but I never expected everything to be suddenly rosy following our leaving the EU. Rather I expect things to take some time to settle and in the end business to dictate a more common sense approach to our trade with Europe than politicians will ever achieve. I voted to leave the EU, a huge, overfunded, wasteful political organisation, not Europe or it's people. With the current state of politics and quality of politicians worldwide anything that removes a substantial layer of them from the process has to be considered in my opinion.

The success or failure of Brexit was never going to be determined in one or two years it is a long term project with advantages and disadvantages that will take time to stabilise, particularly given the events surrounding covid which has pretty much removed that first year from the equation. Go back to when this topic started and you will find that all along I have said that the success of leaving depends very much on the willingness of those in positions of power to make it work. Far too many would rather see the people of their countries suffer than put their efforts towards making it work unfortunately and that only increases the time before we get a settled outcome.

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57 minutes ago, Vince said:

Brexit has created problems, some of which are down to leaving and some of which are down to sheer bloody mindedness of officials who are doing everything to prevent a smooth transition. Unlike you I can't claim to speak for all leave voters but I never expected everything to be suddenly rosy following our leaving the EU. Rather I expect things to take some time to settle and in the end business to dictate a more common sense approach to our trade with Europe than politicians will ever achieve. 

Of course it has to the fault of the officials, not the Brexit politicians who pulled out of a completely free trade area, therefore requiring the bureaucracy to be implemented. And only agreeing - what was a very poor trade agreement - a few days before the clock ran out, gave said officials very little time to work out the practicalities. 

I do agree that you didn't claim things would be perfect from Day 1. However, you also said working in other countries and sending goods abroad would be a matter of 'filling a few pieces of paper' and that it could all be done electronically. That is simply not proved to be the case and there's absolutely no sign that it will be the case in future. That is absolutely a consequence of Brexit and has nothing to do with COVID whatsoever. 

Despite the fact that it signed the Brexit Agreement and subsequent 'trade deal', the UK government seems intent on picking silly fights with the EU to distract from the inevitable detrimental consequences of leaving the Single Market. It's nothing more than a dog whistle to Brexit supporters (who are diminishing by the day as the realities are exposed), along with that silly 'GREAT Britain' marketing slogan that nevertheless can't cover up the damage being done to the economy.

Edited by Humphrey Appleby
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39 minutes ago, Humphrey Appleby said:

Of course it has to the fault of the officials, not the Brexit politicians who pulled out of a completely free trade area, therefore requiring the bureaucracy to be implemented. And only agreeing - what was a very poor trade agreement - a few days before the clock ran out, gave said officials very little time to work out the practicalities. 

I do agree that you didn't claim things would be perfect from Day 1. However, you also said working in other countries and sending goods abroad would be a matter of 'filling a few pieces of paper' and that it could all be done electronically. That is simply not proved to be the case and there's absolutely no sign that it will be the case in future. That is absolutely a consequence of Brexit and has nothing to do with COVID whatsoever. 

Despite the fact that it signed the Brexit Agreement and subsequent 'trade deal', the UK government seems intent on picking silly fights with the EU to distract from the inevitable detrimental consequences of leaving the Single Market. It's nothing more than a dog whistle to Brexit supporters (who are diminishing by the day as the realities are exposed), along with that silly 'GREAT Britain' marketing slogan that nevertheless can't cover up the damage being done to the economy.

Much of it is the fault of the politicians who left without a plan of course but it has to be remembered that a great many of them spent more time trying to avoid Brexit than working constructively toward it. Those politicians in favour of leaving were hampered at every turn.

Sending the vast majority of goods in and out of Europe is a matter of filling in a few forms, we are doing it daily. There is no reason it couldn't all be done electronically sooner rather than later except a lack of willingness to make it happen. The usual poor government standard of administration is undoubtedly magnified by politicians and civil servants trying to pee a bit higher up the wall than their neighbours.

 There are some very significant areas where Brexit has created real difficulties but we should be identifying them and working flat out to resolve them rather than bitching about a decision already made. Of course every problem with movement of goods and people is a consequence of Brexit but it doesn't necessarily follow that it is Brexit's fault rather than poor, accidental and deliberate administrative nonsense. 

No dispute about the UK government picking silly fights but it is far from confined to them with the EU doing at least their share of political one-upmanship to further personal aims.

After that you fall into your usual rubbish about how many Brexit supporters there are now (if you had been right about that even once there would have been none left a long time ago) the fact is you have been proved wrong twice already.

How much damage is being done by Brexit is debatable, for me and the industry I work in the bad effects are negligible and those reported largely media fiction and exaggeration. I would also say that given how many new training programs are already being introduced by companies and the efforts being made to reward staff loyalty the future is looking brighter for many of our youngsters already.

It was never going to be an easy transition but like all change it can be made much more successful with everybody working toward a final target rather than whining about what could have been.

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1 hour ago, Vince said:

The EU is also a hot bed of corruption that has wasted billions on nonsense over the years, it is not and never has been some sort of organisation heading for paradise.

I imagine the vast majority, like myself, who voted to leave the EU did so because they don't like the way it has changed and is now headed since we joined. Had it stayed a trading union rather than a massive self serving political enterprise then the vote to stay in would have been overwhelming had it ever been necessary.

Again we see that all Brexit supporters are racist but that is just biased nonsense in the same way that the shortage of HGV drivers is very little to do with leaving the EU despite the assurances from remainers that Brexit is responsible for every problem. It seems to have escaped the remain camps notice that we have just had by far the biggest disruption to all business and industry since the second world war.

Brexit has created problems, some of which are down to leaving and some of which are down to sheer bloody mindedness of officials who are doing everything to prevent a smooth transition. Unlike you I can't claim to speak for all leave voters but I never expected everything to be suddenly rosy following our leaving the EU. Rather I expect things to take some time to settle and in the end business to dictate a more common sense approach to our trade with Europe than politicians will ever achieve. I voted to leave the EU, a huge, overfunded, wasteful political organisation, not Europe or it's people. With the current state of politics and quality of politicians worldwide anything that removes a substantial layer of them from the process has to be considered in my opinion.

The success or failure of Brexit was never going to be determined in one or two years it is a long term project with advantages and disadvantages that will take time to stabilise, particularly given the events surrounding covid which has pretty much removed that first year from the equation. Go back to when this topic started and you will find that all along I have said that the success of leaving depends very much on the willingness of those in positions of power to make it work. Far too many would rather see the people of their countries suffer than put their efforts towards making it work unfortunately and that only increases the time before we get a settled outcome.

You a very decent human being like many sucked into this vile campaign of lies and false statements instigated by the likes of Katie Hopkins, Jada Fransen, Nigel Farage and Stephen Yaxley-Lennon. Farage's campaign poster was a blatant racist statement. The majority of Brexit supporters voted on a platform of anti-immigration and that is fact. 

As for the EU being a hotbed of corruption what about the offshore activities of our financial sector and the dreadful roll back of environmental protection allowing our cash rich cartel of water companies operate with impunity. While corruption is always an element of 24 nations more evidence is required to back up your statement.

You should know better the 60's were a dire time for the country everyone was poor but from joining the EU Britain has enjoyed successive years of growth and prosperity why vote to end something that has benefited us all I can't understand your rational. We have been out of the EU over 5 years and the only word to describe the transition is dreadful unless you are Russian oligarch or a billionaire non dom. We are piling on debt that is damaging the economy and it will have to be paid back leaving the less prosperous Brexit area's bereft of any financial support or strategic influence. Levelling up is just one of Boris Johnson's meaning less catch phases that placate a humble ill informed electorate. When will people see through these rich elitist public schoolboys in politics and particularly newspapers that that haven't a clue how to run the country on a stable platform.

 

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1 hour ago, Vince said:

Sending the vast majority of goods in and out of Europe is a matter of filling in a few forms, we are doing it daily. There is no reason it couldn't all be done electronically sooner rather than later except a lack of willingness to make it happen. The usual poor government standard of administration is undoubtedly magnified by politicians and civil servants trying to pee a bit higher up the wall than their neighbours.

 

Sending goods to and from EU may only be a few pieces of paperwork although it is not quite as easy as you make out if the company does not have import/export experts. That is another cost to the business but the real problem is getting quality standards and type approval for product that was already in place pre Brexit and also finding raw materials that are only produced in EU or beyond that countries in Europe are more happy to trade between themselves. Also tariffs now come into the equation which is the main reason one of my motorsport customers has made the decision to re-locate to Austria!

These are the ‘small’ facts that actually add to be a big deal for companies that you are quite happy to gloss over in the name of sovereignty!

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1 hour ago, Vince said:

Much of it is the fault of the politicians who left without a plan of course but it has to be remembered that a great many of them spent more time trying to avoid Brexit than working constructively toward it. Those politicians in favour of leaving were hampered at every turn.

Sending the vast majority of goods in and out of Europe is a matter of filling in a few forms, we are doing it daily. There is no reason it couldn't all be done electronically sooner rather than later except a lack of willingness to make it happen. The usual poor government standard of administration is undoubtedly magnified by politicians and civil servants trying to pee a bit higher up the wall than their neighbours.

 There are some very significant areas where Brexit has created real difficulties but we should be identifying them and working flat out to resolve them rather than bitching about a decision already made. Of course every problem with movement of goods and people is a consequence of Brexit but it doesn't necessarily follow that it is Brexit's fault rather than poor, accidental and deliberate administrative nonsense. 

No dispute about the UK government picking silly fights but it is far from confined to them with the EU doing at least their share of political one-upmanship to further personal aims.

After that you fall into your usual rubbish about how many Brexit supporters there are now (if you had been right about that even once there would have been none left a long time ago) the fact is you have been proved wrong twice already.

How much damage is being done by Brexit is debatable, for me and the industry I work in the bad effects are negligible and those reported largely media fiction and exaggeration. I would also say that given how many new training programs are already being introduced by companies and the efforts being made to reward staff loyalty the future is looking brighter for many of our youngsters already.

It was never going to be an easy transition but like all change it can be made much more successful with everybody working toward a final target rather than whining about what could have been.

If ever there was an argument for watering down Brexit or dumping it altogether Vince you've set out some very good reasons why we are in this structural and logistical nightmare. How on earth can the Northern Ireland protocol work when you have an artificiality created state based on religious preferences. The EU membership enabled  a frictionless border thus avoiding the complexities of Unionist and Nationalist politics that now is in tatters well done.

Sorry Vince but your arguments have no substance.

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4 hours ago, Vince said:

Much of it is the fault of the politicians who left without a plan of course but it has to be remembered that a great many of them spent more time trying to avoid Brexit than working constructively toward it. Those politicians in favour of leaving were hampered at every turn.

Sending the vast majority of goods in and out of Europe is a matter of filling in a few forms, we are doing it daily. There is no reason it couldn't all be done electronically sooner rather than later except a lack of willingness to make it happen. The usual poor government standard of administration is undoubtedly magnified by politicians and civil servants trying to pee a bit higher up the wall than their neighbours.

 There are some very significant areas where Brexit has created real difficulties but we should be identifying them and working flat out to resolve them rather than bitching about a decision already made.

Well I'm glad you realise there are difficulties and so happy that you're not inconvenienced. The upshot is though, that when I now enter a country where I've lived and worked for nearly 25 years, instead of being able to.use the automatic passport barriers and be through in 5 minutes, I'm treated like an illegal immigrant coming with all sorts of intrusive questioning and disbelieving of the answers. 

So yes, the UK government picking pathetic fights is creating difficulties for British citizens. :angry:

 

Edited by Humphrey Appleby
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6 hours ago, dj350z said:

Sending goods to and from EU may only be a few pieces of paperwork although it is not quite as easy as you make out if the company does not have import/export experts. That is another cost to the business but the real problem is getting quality standards and type approval for product that was already in place pre Brexit and also finding raw materials that are only produced in EU or beyond that countries in Europe are more happy to trade between themselves. Also tariffs now come into the equation which is the main reason one of my motorsport customers has made the decision to re-locate to Austria!

The devil of course is in the detail.

I don't think many farmers and fisherfolk are finding that it's just a few pieces of paperwork, but I suppose they did largely vote for Brexit so have ended up being hoisted by their own petard. 

I'm sure big businesses can afford to hire people to sort all the approvals and paperwork (much of which they never needed before), but it's the small ones that are really getting shafted.

https://www.ft.com/content/6ee7c2fb-5cac-4ed5-900c-37b6b09ba464

Edited by Humphrey Appleby
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