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The White Knight

European Union - In Or Out?

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11 hours ago, Pieman72 said:

You've confirmed why we are in this Brexit mess. Nothing in your posts to suggest how we get out of this Brexitmate just more insults obviously you can't debate which would be great. Can you suggest how we replace the funding we had from the EU that made deprived area's feel involved or how companies can trade seamlessly so as to prevent them from going under.

Plenty in my posts suggesting how the genuine issues can be resolved. Lets not forget that the vast majority of trade is continuing without problems, stop crying wolf and maybe the real issues will get some attention. Companies who traded seamlessly before Brexit could continue to do so if the will was there among politicians on both sides.

You are right that debate with you and HA can't be done because you are so blinkered in your admiration of the EU you completely fail to see any other point of view. Repeatedly you tell me you know why I think as I do but fail to listen when I tell you what I actually think. As for insults I suggest you look to the fact that I replied in a similar tone to the one you used replying to me.

The funding we had from the EU was actually only some of our own money returned to us in effect. The difference will be that UK politicians we get to decide what to fund in the UK.

14 hours ago, iris123 said:

Now it is butchers the UK want to attract for a short period !!!

 

Plans to bring in butchers from the EU to prevent a meat shortage this Christmas are under threat amid a surge in Covid cases across Europe, industry bosses have warned.

A new visa scheme will allow 800 overseas butchers to come to the UK for six months to help tackle labour shortages during the festive period.

Like the temporary driver visas this is just a political stunt by the government. Nobody is giving up a long term job to come to the UK for a few weeks, especially with the possibility of further covid restrictions and everybody knows it.

9 hours ago, Jonny the spud said:

I don’t think that people realise that the UK just isn’t a nice place to be at the moment. 
 

It’s showed itself to be petty, xenophobic and hostile towards foreigners then wonders why no one wants to come for a few months to bail them out of the (self inflicted) poo. 

I don't think you realise that for the vast majority, wherever they were born, the UK hasn't changed one iota since Brexit. There are still millions of EU workers living and working here quite happily, I've never seen a single racist comment given with regard to Brexit and would have to assume the same would apply to most people. I work with several Eastern Europeans every day without any issues on either side, they chose to stay either permanently or for a while longer while others chose to go home. 

Maybe the UK looks xenophobic and hostile from outside but from within I would say very few see it that way.

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3 hours ago, Vince said:

You are right that debate with you and HA can't be done because you are so blinkered in your admiration of the EU you completely fail to see any other point of view.

Like so many Brexiteers, you don't want to debate because the effects of Brexit have now become apparently obvious and you don't like Remainers pointing it out. As the evidence mounts up, polls show public opinion is increasingly turning against Brexit, so clearly more than a few see things differently to you, which they're quite entitled to do. Meanwhile you seem to pre-suppose what we might actually think about the EU.

It's now just kicking the can down the road with excuses such 'it would be fine if the right people were put in charge', and 'it needs to be given time' - ignoring the fact that a Brexiteer government implemented Brexit and has been in charge for the last 5 years. Also ignoring the fact there were all the assurances that trade would be the same as before, 'a matter of filling in a few forms', 'sunny uplands' and Remainers were just trying to make things complicated.  :rofl:

I'd suggest that for particular industries, things are very much not like they were before, and not for the better either. Meanwhile, the UK economy faces the double whammy of inflationary pressures whilst not having sufficient production capability. 

Edited by Humphrey Appleby
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Like so many remainers you refuse to see that the UK isn't a pit of despair. There are problems but despite your assurances the pound hasn't collapsed, unemployment isn't sky high and the vast majority of people are carrying on life as normal despite the undisputable fact that covid has had a far more negative impact than Brexit.

There are problems, of course there are and you should remember that I always said the success of leaving the EU would be very much dependant on the will of those in charge to work towards resolving the problems. However the ultimate outcome of leaving is far from decided and the success or otherwise of leaving was never going to be decisively known within 5 years and more realistically 10. My opinion is that in the long term trade will be much as before, if politicians stopped playing games both sides of the channel it could happen very much sooner, however too many are looking after their personal interests first.

I would agree that for particular industries the change has been very difficult, mostly completely unnecessarily so. However the fact still remains that for the majority it is a case of filling in some forms. You would have us believe the majority are struggling and that just isn't the case. 

You clearly think that the British government is entirely to blame for all the problems while I believe the blame lies with both them and the EU. France in particular are being as helpful as ever because of their own political situation.

And despite protestations it would never happen we have factions from the powerhouse of the EU openly stating that they want the EU to head towards federalisation and away from individual sovereignty as soon as possible.

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This is something that might or might not be relevant to this thread at this time, talking about attracting workers etc. Seems like the best place to stick it anyway :D

Ist möglicherweise ein Bild von Text „The most common national celebration on Earth is actually a holiday shared by 65 different countries, on different days in each country, on an annual basis averaging out to being celebrated somewhere on the planet once every 6 days: Independence from the British Nyarai Nhau @nyashaneta“

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15 minutes ago, iris123 said:

This is something that might or might not be relevant to this thread at this time, talking about attracting workers etc. Seems like the best place to stick it anyway :D

Ist möglicherweise ein Bild von Text „The most common national celebration on Earth is actually a holiday shared by 65 different countries, on different days in each country, on an annual basis averaging out to being celebrated somewhere on the planet once every 6 days: Independence from the British Nyarai Nhau @nyashaneta“

Babarxit this week as well...  

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2 minutes ago, Humphrey Appleby said:

Babarxit this week as well...  

Plus there is always the slight threat of Scotland joining that club 

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7 hours ago, Vince said:

Plenty in my posts suggesting how the genuine issues can be resolved. Lets not forget that the vast majority of trade is continuing without problems, stop crying wolf and maybe the real issues will get some attention. Companies who traded seamlessly before Brexit could continue to do so if the will was there among politicians on both sides.

You are right that debate with you and HA can't be done because you are so blinkered in your admiration of the EU you completely fail to see any other point of view. Repeatedly you tell me you know why I think as I do but fail to listen when I tell you what I actually think. As for insults I suggest you look to the fact that I replied in a similar tone to the one you used replying to me.

The funding we had from the EU was actually only some of our own money returned to us in effect. The difference will be that UK politicians we get to decide what to fund in the UK.

Like the temporary driver visas this is just a political stunt by the government. Nobody is giving up a long term job to come to the UK for a few weeks, especially with the possibility of further covid restrictions and everybody knows it.

I don't think you realise that for the vast majority, wherever they were born, the UK hasn't changed one iota since Brexit. There are still millions of EU workers living and working here quite happily, I've never seen a single racist comment given with regard to Brexit and would have to assume the same would apply to most people. I work with several Eastern Europeans every day without any issues on either side, they chose to stay either permanently or for a while longer while others chose to go home. 

Maybe the UK looks xenophobic and hostile from outside but from within I would say very few see it that way.

Plenty of suggestions but your arguments are imbalanced and slanted. Gunboat diplomacy ended in the 19th Century. You just don't get it Brexit has put barriers to trade and migration that weren't there before and you keep assuming my views that are incorrect. The money from the EU is an equal distribution of wealth where as normally 95% of the investment in the UK went to London and the South. These are not insults just clear statements of fact. The money the Prime minister has pledged to poor communities is not even 10% of what the ESF gave us. Just political hot air on the first element of 'levelling up' and Northern Powerhouse' little has been delivered other than empty promises. So the figures that the Home Office and the ONS are putting out on migration are wrong and the industries who have labour shortages are just made up. I can see your viewpoint but realisticly you need to look back, prior to coming out of the EU, Single Market and ripping up all the agreements with Europe, trade and co-operation was seamless. If we'd have been in the Euro and the Schengen Zone it would have been even easier. All this awful stuff in the newspapers and social media isn't doing our standing in the world much good and now we have thrown Ireland and the EU under the bus we need to show the world we are a viable country to trade with?

 

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2 hours ago, Pieman72 said:

The money the Prime minister has pledged to poor communities is not even 10% of what the ESF gave us.

One of the issues of course, is that Brexit was always going to cause contraction in the UK economy, so the alleged '350 million we give every week to the EU' was never going to be matchable by the UK government, even it it had been a real figure in the first place. Then there's the Brexit severance agreement which is costing billions with no return to the country.

Those UK communities that benefitted from the EU structural funds are now finding out how they've been conned by the Brexit Brigade, although it's frankly hard to have much sympathy for those who voted against the economic interests of the parts of the country that are expected to subsidise the rest... 

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11 hours ago, Vince said:

Plenty in my posts suggesting how the genuine issues can be resolved. Lets not forget that the vast majority of trade is continuing without problems, stop crying wolf and maybe the real issues will get some attention. Companies who traded seamlessly before Brexit could continue to do so if the will was there among politicians on both sides.

You are right that debate with you and HA can't be done because you are so blinkered in your admiration of the EU you completely fail to see any other point of view. Repeatedly you tell me you know why I think as I do but fail to listen when I tell you what I actually think. As for insults I suggest you look to the fact that I replied in a similar tone to the one you used replying to me.

The funding we had from the EU was actually only some of our own money returned to us in effect. The difference will be that UK politicians we get to decide what to fund in the UK.

Like the temporary driver visas this is just a political stunt by the government. Nobody is giving up a long term job to come to the UK for a few weeks, especially with the possibility of further covid restrictions and everybody knows it.

I don't think you realise that for the vast majority, wherever they were born, the UK hasn't changed one iota since Brexit. There are still millions of EU workers living and working here quite happily, I've never seen a single racist comment given with regard to Brexit and would have to assume the same would apply to most people. I work with several Eastern Europeans every day without any issues on either side, they chose to stay either permanently or for a while longer while others chose to go home. 

Maybe the UK looks xenophobic and hostile from outside but from within I would say very few see it that way.

But it's not about will at all, the EU would need any free trade deal to come with a sizeable wedge of dough and to sign up to their standards and external tariffs.

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11 hours ago, Pieman72 said:

Plenty of suggestions but your arguments are imbalanced and slanted. Gunboat diplomacy ended in the 19th Century. You just don't get it Brexit has put barriers to trade and migration that weren't there before and you keep assuming my views that are incorrect. The money from the EU is an equal distribution of wealth where as normally 95% of the investment in the UK went to London and the South. These are not insults just clear statements of fact. The money the Prime minister has pledged to poor communities is not even 10% of what the ESF gave us. Just political hot air on the first element of 'levelling up' and Northern Powerhouse' little has been delivered other than empty promises. So the figures that the Home Office and the ONS are putting out on migration are wrong and the industries who have labour shortages are just made up. I can see your viewpoint but realisticly you need to look back, prior to coming out of the EU, Single Market and ripping up all the agreements with Europe, trade and co-operation was seamless. If we'd have been in the Euro and the Schengen Zone it would have been even easier. All this awful stuff in the newspapers and social media isn't doing our standing in the world much good and now we have thrown Ireland and the EU under the bus we need to show the world we are a viable country to trade with?

 

Of course my arguments are biased toward my point of view, unfortunately you fail to recognise that the same thing applies to you as well.

Obviously Brexit has changed the way we trade and transfer goods between us and the EU, I get that having spent most of last year dealing with some of the changes directly. 

The money isn't from the EU, it is from the British tax payer with the EU deciding how it is spent. No more than UK government money is from them, however it is much easier to call our own politicians to account for the way tax revenue is used than it is the EU. Does 95% of all UK government investment really go to to London and the south,  I'd be surprised despite your assertion it is a 'clear statement of fact'

I don't remember ever saying there weren't labour shortages or that ONS figures are wrong. There is absolutely no doubt that there are millions of EU migrants still living and working in the UK, the ONS says so! However the headlines around the HGV shortage have been wildly exaggerated in their blame of Brexit by some sources so it is reasonable to assume others are the same.

Trade with the EU might have been easier but it was expensive both financially and in terms of freedom of movement having some long term side effects that were damaging. to the UK. Whether that cost was worth continuing to pay is a matter of opinion not a black and white fact.

The EU are throwing Ireland under the bus at least as much as the UK, it is their market that needs protecting.

If social media and newspaper reports are a basis for judging the success of anything we are doomed. You only have to look at this topic and some of you would have us believe the country is falling to bits because of Brexit. As I keep pointing out for the majority of people in the UK it is very much a case of carrying on as before despite the once in a lifetime disaster that the covid restrictions bought.

Finally one positive thing that has undeniably come from Brexit is that which I most hoped for and it is happening already. The employment market has changed very much for the better with many major companies working much harder to train and retain staff than they have done for decades. While all the media stories are about staff shortages the reality is that we could be on route to full or near full employment which could bring a huge saving in costs alongside a better society.

 

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6 hours ago, Vince said:

Of course my arguments are biased toward my point of view, unfortunately you fail to recognise that the same thing applies to you as well.

Obviously Brexit has changed the way we trade and transfer goods between us and the EU, I get that having spent most of last year dealing with some of the changes directly. 

The money isn't from the EU, it is from the British tax payer with the EU deciding how it is spent. No more than UK government money is from them, however it is much easier to call our own politicians to account for the way tax revenue is used than it is the EU. Does 95% of all UK government investment really go to to London and the south,  I'd be surprised despite your assertion it is a 'clear statement of fact'

I don't remember ever saying there weren't labour shortages or that ONS figures are wrong. There is absolutely no doubt that there are millions of EU migrants still living and working in the UK, the ONS says so! However the headlines around the HGV shortage have been wildly exaggerated in their blame of Brexit by some sources so it is reasonable to assume others are the same.

Trade with the EU might have been easier but it was expensive both financially and in terms of freedom of movement having some long term side effects that were damaging. to the UK. Whether that cost was worth continuing to pay is a matter of opinion not a black and white fact.

The EU are throwing Ireland under the bus at least as much as the UK, it is their market that needs protecting.

If social media and newspaper reports are a basis for judging the success of anything we are doomed. You only have to look at this topic and some of you would have us believe the country is falling to bits because of Brexit. As I keep pointing out for the majority of people in the UK it is very much a case of carrying on as before despite the once in a lifetime disaster that the covid restrictions bought.

Finally one positive thing that has undeniably come from Brexit is that which I most hoped for and it is happening already. The employment market has changed very much for the better with many major companies working much harder to train and retain staff than they have done for decades. While all the media stories are about staff shortages the reality is that we could be on route to full or near full employment which could bring a huge saving in costs alongside a better society.

 

Some good points. Could you tell me what you do as an occupation. In respect of investment one word Cross Rail..................

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7 hours ago, Vince said:

Of course my arguments are biased toward my point of view, unfortunately you fail to recognise that the same thing applies to you as well.

Obviously Brexit has changed the way we trade and transfer goods between us and the EU, I get that having spent most of last year dealing with some of the changes directly. 

The money isn't from the EU, it is from the British tax payer with the EU deciding how it is spent. No more than UK government money is from them, however it is much easier to call our own politicians to account for the way tax revenue is used than it is the EU. Does 95% of all UK government investment really go to to London and the south,  I'd be surprised despite your assertion it is a 'clear statement of fact'

I don't remember ever saying there weren't labour shortages or that ONS figures are wrong. There is absolutely no doubt that there are millions of EU migrants still living and working in the UK, the ONS says so! However the headlines around the HGV shortage have been wildly exaggerated in their blame of Brexit by some sources so it is reasonable to assume others are the same.

Trade with the EU might have been easier but it was expensive both financially and in terms of freedom of movement having some long term side effects that were damaging. to the UK. Whether that cost was worth continuing to pay is a matter of opinion not a black and white fact.

The EU are throwing Ireland under the bus at least as much as the UK, it is their market that needs protecting.

If social media and newspaper reports are a basis for judging the success of anything we are doomed. You only have to look at this topic and some of you would have us believe the country is falling to bits because of Brexit. As I keep pointing out for the majority of people in the UK it is very much a case of carrying on as before despite the once in a lifetime disaster that the covid restrictions bought.

Finally one positive thing that has undeniably come from Brexit is that which I most hoped for and it is happening already. The employment market has changed very much for the better with many major companies working much harder to train and retain staff than they have done for decades. While all the media stories are about staff shortages the reality is that we could be on route to full or near full employment which could bring a huge saving in costs alongside a better society.

 

A typical post from a South of English Brexit voting Tory.

First of all the Economy post Brexit will contract by 4% with some projections of 8%.

The EU have not thrown Ireland under the bus in fact trade volumes and routes are  at record levels. The Port of Dublin is investing 400 million Euros. They are now bypassing our ports and Northern Ireland which will have a severe economic consequence.

I respect of jobs what data do you have for training, job opportunities and better pay. The same old low pay, zero hours, temporary part time jobs and phantom apprenticeship's are still there the Gig Economy is thriving but with non EU foreign national now. Where are the high paid technical jobs that Boris has promised? The Kickstart scheme is another scheme that helps manipulate the jobs market.

I agree we are not doomed just 500,000 people wanting a house, homelessness at record levels and you can get full employment if you break a full time retail occupation into 3 part time. Home ownership is declining even with eye watering private rentals.

The ESF didn't come from us. To qualify the average  income in an area had to be below 75% it's not dependent on how much we paid in.

So when you quote freedom of movement you mean we have become inward and racist and this has changed the political landscape of the UK. Bigoted views have stopped us having the opportunity to move live and work in 23 countries, it's hindering scientific research and funding, buying selling and postage is now expensive and complex. Roaming charges are horrendous and expats have been left in limbo. I never had any problems with EU national living and working here in fact like the Asian community they were having a massive influence particularly with commerce and skilled highly qualified occupations. 

Realisticly your looking out of the UK with Brexit tinted spectacles giving a jaundiced viewpoint of the world. While Brexit has not been a disaster long term it's just not working and we need to find a way out of this rather damaging exercise in warped democracy. As a result of lies, biased press and political posturing we're all worse off, will it improve probably not.

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1 hour ago, Pieman72 said:

Some good points. Could you tell me what you do as an occupation. In respect of investment one word Cross Rail..................

 

 Pardon my ignorance but what exactly has Crossrail  got to do with Brexit ?

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1 hour ago, Pieman72 said:

A typical post from a South of English Brexit voting Tory.

First of all the Economy post Brexit will contract by 4% with some projections of 8%.

The EU have not thrown Ireland under the bus in fact trade volumes and routes are  at record levels. The Port of Dublin is investing 400 million Euros. They are now bypassing our ports and Northern Ireland which will have a severe economic consequence.

I respect of jobs what data do you have for training, job opportunities and better pay. The same old low pay, zero hours, temporary part time jobs and phantom apprenticeship's are still there the Gig Economy is thriving but with non EU foreign national now. Where are the high paid technical jobs that Boris has promised? The Kickstart scheme is another scheme that helps manipulate the jobs market.

I agree we are not doomed just 500,000 people wanting a house, homelessness at record levels and you can get full employment if you break a full time retail occupation into 3 part time. Home ownership is declining even with eye watering private rentals.

The ESF didn't come from us. To qualify the average  income in an area had to be below 75% it's not dependent on how much we paid in.

So when you quote freedom of movement you mean we have become inward and racist and this has changed the political landscape of the UK. Bigoted views have stopped us having the opportunity to move live and work in 23 countries, it's hindering scientific research and funding, buying selling and postage is now expensive and complex. Roaming charges are horrendous and expats have been left in limbo. I never had any problems with EU national living and working here in fact like the Asian community they were having a massive influence particularly with commerce and skilled highly qualified occupations. 

Realisticly your looking out of the UK with Brexit tinted spectacles giving a jaundiced viewpoint of the world. While Brexit has not been a disaster long term it's just not working and we need to find a way out of this rather damaging exercise in warped democracy. As a result of lies, biased press and political posturing we're all worse off, will it improve probably not.

Pathetic and hugely biased reply. If anybody ever had a jaundiced view of anything it is your view of the UK. 

You talk about inward looking and racist while typecasting people who don't live in the same region of the same country as you. 

I don't like freedom of movement, I do like immigration but that is beyond you because you think you know my opinions better than I do. That knowledge you think you have is based entirely on where I live, who I voted for in the last election and my opinion on one subject. When it comes to bigotry you have few equals. 

Like I said not very long ago, sensible debate with you on the subject of the EU (or the UK you hate so much) is impossible. 

One final thing when you followed the statement that 95% of funding goes to London and the South by saying it was a statement of fact, was that even remotely near the truth? 

Edited by Vince
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