Jump to content
British Speedway Forum
Pinny

Notoriously Dirty Riders

Recommended Posts

6 minutes ago, steve roberts said:

Cradley fans idolised him with that awful nickname of "Pyscho". 

I'm not saying he's dirty but Lambert's nickname 'Ruthless' isn't one i'd choose personally.

The lads talented no doubt but he does chase back wheels.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, BrizHeathen said:

I'm not saying he's dirty but Lambert's nickname 'Ruthless' isn't one i'd choose personally.

The lads talented no doubt but he does chase back wheels.

He acquired that name by Roy, the presenter at Newcastle, who gave all Diamonds riders nicknames for his commentary. He didn't earn it as, as you say, he does chases back wheels and doesn't give up.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, BrizHeathen said:

I'm not saying he's dirty but Lambert's nickname 'Ruthless' isn't one i'd choose personally.

The lads talented no doubt but he does chase back wheels.

Lambert's nickname came from his days of helping his father on work sites as a young lad, its creation is not related to his speedway career...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, steve roberts said:

Always difficult ones to call when there's an incident on the opposite side of the track to the referee. Lyons left plenty of room riding a wide line going into the bend which Tomicek took advantage of and, yes, there was evidence of a flick of the back wheel but was he, by then, in front? Who'd be a referee? As a matter of interest do referees now have access to instant replays?

As a footnote I've recently acquired the DVD "Before Air Fences" which I haven't seen yet and when I do I will pause after each race and make a decision and see if it was any different to the one called? Give me something to view from an academic angle!

About 10 years ago I was lucky enough to watch a meeting from the ref's box at a current British track. I say 'lucky' as it was a foul night in October with a perishing, unforgiving wind straight from the Arctic! I can't remember if the windows in the box opened, but given the weather they stayed firmly closed that night.

Anyway, anyone who has watched speedway through glass knows it gives a slightly distorted view, and even though I have average eyesight (and therefore much better than most refs if the old joke is true, ha!) I simply could not identify the riders on the back straight. All the helmet colours looked the same. And if there had been an incident going into the third bend, I simply wouldn't have had a clue who was at fault as the view was that poor.

I have no idea if it is still like that there, but instant replays would have been the only way I could have made a decision that night had I been the ref. As we see every week with VAR in football, though, even with the aid of technology there are still some mind-boggling verdicts. What that night did do was help me understand the difficulties speedway refs have in making the right call on a split-second incident which could involve two or more riders 100 yards or so away on a dimly-lit track.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You have the odd fall out now but the rider feuds back in the day were great too. 
 

I remember Paul Fry nutting Phil Morris at Swindon back in around 2000 ish after Morris had pulled a naughty move on him. And who can forget Anders Henriksson and Carl Stonehewers fall outs?

 

What made that great was Anders used to beat him at Newport and it really got under Stoneys skin. Hated being beaten by him. 
 

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
35 minutes ago, Pinny said:

You have the odd fall out now but the rider feuds back in the day were great too. 
 

I remember Paul Fry nutting Phil Morris at Swindon back in around 2000 ish after Morris had pulled a naughty move on him. And who can forget Anders Henriksson and Carl Stonehewers fall outs?

 

What made that great was Anders used to beat him at Newport and it really got under Stoneys skin. Hated being beaten by him. 
 

 

Kelvin Tatum and Neil Evitts had issues with each other I recall?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 hours ago, uk_martin said:

If you slow the video down you'll see a definite flick of the Tomicek's back wheel into Lyons which causes Lyons to career into the fence. It doesn't really matter how much room there is outside, if you are pushed from the inside you are going to suffer the consequences. All that room on the outside does is give you a longer route into the fence.

That flick was caused by a bit more throttle to point the bike down the straight, I don't see any way in which he deliberately did that to hit Lyons. He didn't know exactly where he was for starters.

As for the Phil Morris incident it's been done to death but I don't see that as anything other than a racing incident either, two riders rode lines that converged on the exit.

20 hours ago, E I Addio said:

There are two things that are constantly overlooked when considering so-called dirty riding. The first is speedway and thinking distance . Even on the slowest part of a small track the riders are exiting the bends at around 30 mph which has a thinking distance of around 9 metres per second. In other words a rider will travel something like 5-6 metres between thinking of something and starting to do it. If a rider wants to execute a dirty move he somehow has to work out where both he and the opponent will be on the track some distance ahead. Frankly I don’t think many so called instances of dirty riding really are. They are more often stupid, wild or over enthusiastic, often with Adrenalin taking over. It is after all , a very tough sport.

The other thing is who decides where the border line is between hard riding and dirty riding. I remember Lee Richardson telling me years ago that at the top level, all of them , even Mr Nice Guy Greg Hancock are very, very hard men, and if they weren’t they wouldn’t be at the top. So once again we come back to the fact that it is a very tough sport, and at times the border between hard and dirty can easily and inadvertently be crossed.

I agree totally with that, I think there are very few deliberately dirty moves in Speedway. The higher the level the harder moves can be without disastrous consequences but at the end of the day it is a very small world and riders deliberately riding dirty will soon be getting retaliation from all angles.

Having said that I do think the one thing that you see, mostly at lower levels, that should always result in disqualification whether it results in an accident or not is turning right. The move can and does cause the type of accidents that will often result in serious injury and there is no sensible reason for it. Luckily it's not common but I have seen a couple of riders who have used it as a blocking move and possibly not even realised how dangerous it is.

  • Like 6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Regarding the Alan Grahame, Chris Morton incident. If Grahame had taken a BV rider to the fence earlier in the meeting, then surely someone should have done the same to him, not put him through it onto the dog track, breaking his thigh and finishing his season and taking away one of the few bright sparks the Brummies fans had that season.

The "punishment" didn't fit the "crime" in this instance. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2/8/2021 at 3:42 PM, E I Addio said:

There are two things that are constantly overlooked when considering so-called dirty riding. The first is speedway and thinking distance . Even on the slowest part of a small track the riders are exiting the bends at around 30 mph which has a thinking distance of around 9 metres per second. In other words a rider will travel something like 5-6 metres between thinking of something and starting to do it. If a rider wants to execute a dirty move he somehow has to work out where both he and the opponent will be on the track some distance ahead. Frankly I don’t think many so called instances of dirty riding really are. They are more often stupid, wild or over enthusiastic, often with Adrenalin taking over. It is after all , a very tough sport.

The other thing is who decides where the border line is between hard riding and dirty riding. I remember Lee Richardson telling me years ago that at the top level, all of them , even Mr Nice Guy Greg Hancock are very, very hard men, and if they weren’t they wouldn’t be at the top. So once again we come back to the fact that it is a very tough sport, and at times the border between hard and dirty can easily and inadvertently be crossed.

Whilst slightly off the topic i think the above also illustrates the tremendous reactions shown by some in avoiding accidents and laying the bike down, over the years i have seen some tremendous feats of this underrated skill and big injuries prevented. Sadly in contrast i have seen riders travel significant distances and still collide with a fallen rider. It still slightly baffles me that we operate in a sport where big throttle use is often the only requirement for entry and safety/ability is not always the over riding requirement. 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2/7/2021 at 6:16 PM, uk_martin said:

It all depends on which side of the border you live on and which team you support.

Glasgow Tigers fans wanted Morris's head mounted on a pole for that, and are using it as justification for voting "leave" at the next independence referendum. Such is life when you are passionate for a cause.  On the other hand, as a Brummies fan, the way I saw it, and as has been said above, he rode the same exit line out of that 4th bend that he'd used before and there was no attempt to ride into the side of the opponent, not in the way that Michael Schumacher or Sebastian Vettel have been known to do in F1 racing. Also as has been said above, he was in front and entitled to pick his own line. Glasgow fans will obviously disagree. To them every line on that track belongs to their riders and their riders only. Likewise when a gap closes, shutting the throttle off, doesn't seem to be the done thing. And finally, the one thing that nobody has asked or considered is what contribution that "safety" fence had on the injuries?  Hitting an upright pole sticking out of the ground is going to hurt, possibly badly. It was too far around for an air fence to have been an option at that location but would the injury have been any lesser had the fence been of the solid board type? 

Now if you do want to see a "definite" nudge that caused someone to go into the fence, check out Lubos Tomicek on Jason Lyons.

 

Are Birmingham fans still banging on about this one? I remember at the time they wanted Tomicek thrown out the meeting.... probably would of done Somerset a favour if he was but that’s another story for another day!

Tomicek used to have a near heart attack every time he got near anybody on track so I am 100% certain there is no way that is intentional. You could actually even argue he passed Lyons into the turn, he doesn’t have to leave room and Lyons should actually back off. Nothing more than a racing incident!

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Sings4Speedway said:

Whilst slightly off the topic i think the above also illustrates the tremendous reactions shown by some in avoiding accidents and laying the bike down, over the years i have seen some tremendous feats of this underrated skill and big injuries prevented. Sadly in contrast i have seen riders travel significant distances and still collide with a fallen rider. It still slightly baffles me that we operate in a sport where big throttle use is often the only requirement for entry and safety/ability is not always the over riding requirement. 

Recall that Len Silver wouldn't allow someone to take to the track during his Training Schools until they had satisfied him that they were able to lay the bike down...I did read that he used to jump in front of a rider forcing them to drop the bike but I'm not sure if I actually believe that? Just read in the latest "Backtrack" magazine that it was also a requirement insisting upon by Ken Marshall who used to run Training Schools at Felton under the instruction of John Robson "...if they couldn't lay a bike down, they couldn't go out on the track."

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, steve roberts said:

Recall that Len Silver wouldn't allow someone to take to the track during his Training Schools until they had satisfied him that they were able to lay the bike down...I did read that he used to jump in front of a rider forcing them to drop the bike but I'm not sure if I actually believe that? Just read in the latest "Backtrack" magazine that it was also a requirement insisting upon by Ken Marshall who used to run Training Schools at Felton under the instruction of John Robson "...if they couldn't lay a bike down, they couldn't go out on the track."

Trouble is that there is a world of difference knowing you have to lay the bike down and then doing it at the right time when you don't even get chance to think about it. 

I think all riders who go round a dirt oval eventually get to the stage where they lay the bike down automatically it's at the novice level it's often a problem and I doubt it's something you can actually teach in reality. I think that all that sliding out when learning takes away the fear of a lowside crash so laying it down becomes less of a mental block with time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Vince said:

Trouble is that there is a world of difference knowing you have to lay the bike down and then doing it at the right time when you don't even get chance to think about it. 

I think all riders who go round a dirt oval eventually get to the stage where they lay the bike down automatically it's at the novice level it's often a problem and I doubt it's something you can actually teach in reality. I think that all that sliding out when learning takes away the fear of a lowside crash so laying it down becomes less of a mental block with time.

I always remember when at Ipswich when Oxford were the visitors Kai Niemi got into trouble directly in front of Hans Nielsen and Hans immediately shut the throttle off all within a split second whilst remaining sat on his bike and not having to lay it down...very impressive.

Edited by steve roberts

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Vince said:

Trouble is that there is a world of difference knowing you have to lay the bike down and then doing it at the right time when you don't even get chance to think about it. 

I think all riders who go round a dirt oval eventually get to the stage where they lay the bike down automatically it's at the novice level it's often a problem and I doubt it's something you can actually teach in reality. I think that all that sliding out when learning takes away the fear of a lowside crash so laying it down becomes less of a mental block with time.

Yes, in the old days things were thrown onto the track to make a rider show he could drop the bike. I gather it went out of fashion due to the riders getting hurt and/of damaging their bike. I think nowadays new riders, trying to slide and drop it, are really practicing, unbeknown to them, ready for when they have to drop it.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, Tsunami said:

Yes, in the old days things were thrown onto the track to make a rider show he could drop the bike. I gather it went out of fashion due to the riders getting hurt and/of damaging their bike. I think nowadays new riders, trying to slide and drop it, are really practicing, unbeknown to them, ready for when they have to drop it.

In days gone by riders learnt on 2nd hand bike and in 2nd hand kit, now many juniors turn up on new gear with personalised covers, guards and kevlars. Try telling them or their parents that they need to chuck it up the track a few times as part of the learning exercise.

  • Like 1
  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Please sign in to comment

You will be able to leave a comment after signing in



Sign In Now

×

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue. Privacy Policy