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Notoriously Dirty Riders

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How about Berwick's Rob Grant?

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Wasn't aware before now of the David Mcallan incident but I have just read a report on it in the Glasgow Herald newspaper (one year on). It states that the meeting was actually a double header against Birmingham followed by Stoke and Phil Morris was scheduled to guest for Stoke following the first meeting. However, the report says that not only was Morris excluded for the Mcallan crash but that he was then thrown out of the rest of the meeting!

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As has been said only Morris himself can possibly know if that was accidental or he intentionally nailed him, looks from the video like a racing incident and no doubt the consequences for McAllan sharpened people’s feelings who were there. If he gets up and walks away feelings would run nowhere near as high. 

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8 hours ago, dontforgetthefueltapsbruv said:

I seen far far worse - just a racing incident that one

More to do with the narrow exits to the bends than anything else

It all depends on which side of the border you live on and which team you support.

Glasgow Tigers fans wanted Morris's head mounted on a pole for that, and are using it as justification for voting "leave" at the next independence referendum. Such is life when you are passionate for a cause.  On the other hand, as a Brummies fan, the way I saw it, and as has been said above, he rode the same exit line out of that 4th bend that he'd used before and there was no attempt to ride into the side of the opponent, not in the way that Michael Schumacher or Sebastian Vettel have been known to do in F1 racing. Also as has been said above, he was in front and entitled to pick his own line. Glasgow fans will obviously disagree. To them every line on that track belongs to their riders and their riders only. Likewise when a gap closes, shutting the throttle off, doesn't seem to be the done thing. And finally, the one thing that nobody has asked or considered is what contribution that "safety" fence had on the injuries?  Hitting an upright pole sticking out of the ground is going to hurt, possibly badly. It was too far around for an air fence to have been an option at that location but would the injury have been any lesser had the fence been of the solid board type? 

Now if you do want to see a "definite" nudge that caused someone to go into the fence, check out Lubos Tomicek on Jason Lyons.

 

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32 minutes ago, uk_martin said:

It all depends on which side of the border you live on and which team you support.

Glasgow Tigers fans wanted Morris's head mounted on a pole for that, and are using it as justification for voting "leave" at the next independence referendum. Such is life when you are passionate for a cause.  On the other hand, as a Brummies fan, the way I saw it, and as has been said above, he rode the same exit line out of that 4th bend that he'd used before and there was no attempt to ride into the side of the opponent, not in the way that Michael Schumacher or Sebastian Vettel have been known to do in F1 racing. Also as has been said above, he was in front and entitled to pick his own line. Glasgow fans will obviously disagree. To them every line on that track belongs to their riders and their riders only. Likewise when a gap closes, shutting the throttle off, doesn't seem to be the done thing. And finally, the one thing that nobody has asked or considered is what contribution that "safety" fence had on the injuries?  Hitting an upright pole sticking out of the ground is going to hurt, possibly badly. It was too far around for an air fence to have been an option at that location but would the injury have been any lesser had the fence been of the solid board type? 

Now if you do want to see a "definite" nudge that caused someone to go into the fence, check out Lubos Tomicek on Jason Lyons.

 

Damn awful commentator!

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3 hours ago, steve roberts said:

Damn awful commentator!

Lubos left plenty of room for Jason and he unfortunately picked up a lot of grip. Racing accident. IMO.

Edited by Tsunami
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27 minutes ago, Tsunami said:

Lubos left plenty of room for Jason and he unfortunately pick up a lot of grip. Racing accident. IMO.

I'd agree, looked to me that LT was trying to leave room to race, back end went round a bit to far, due to rider error or a patchy track

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2 hours ago, Tsunami said:

Lubos left plenty of room for Jason and he unfortunately pick up a lot of grip. Racing accident. IMO.

Yes I have to agree. That would have been my call too.

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On 12/28/2015 at 8:27 PM, BWitcher said:

 

Howe tried to lean in on Sam and came off more like.

 

Nothing more than a racing incident.. and Howe didn't break his leg.

 

Worst move I have ever seen, as I have mentioned on other threads was Matej Zagar on Buzz Burrows. Totally pre-meditated and highly dangerous. Never seen anything close to it before or after in hundreds of meetings attended.

Yes that move by Zagar on Burrows halfway down backstraight sticks in my memory.

As for other dirty/hard riders I remember B. Persson, P Erikson breaking K Tatums leg at mommore,J Esklidsen,S Gresham ,G Guglielmi,T, Hunt,R Matuosek not forgetting Wolves most hated own rider N Pedersen 

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18 hours ago, Tsunami said:

Lubos left plenty of room for Jason and he unfortunately picked up a lot of grip. Racing accident. IMO.

If you slow the video down you'll see a definite flick of the Tomicek's back wheel into Lyons which causes Lyons to career into the fence. It doesn't really matter how much room there is outside, if you are pushed from the inside you are going to suffer the consequences. All that room on the outside does is give you a longer route into the fence.

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15 minutes ago, uk_martin said:

If you slow the video down you'll see a definite flick of the Tomicek's back wheel into Lyons which causes Lyons to career into the fence. It doesn't really matter how much room there is outside, if you are pushed from the inside you are going to suffer the consequences. All that room on the outside does is give you a longer route into the fence.

Always difficult ones to call when there's an incident on the opposite side of the track to the referee. Lyons left plenty of room riding a wide line going into the bend which Tomicek took advantage of and, yes, there was evidence of a flick of the back wheel but was he, by then, in front? Who'd be a referee? As a matter of interest do referees now have access to instant replays?

As a footnote I've recently acquired the DVD "Before Air Fences" which I haven't seen yet and when I do I will pause after each race and make a decision and see if it was any different to the one called? Give me something to view from an academic angle!

Edited by steve roberts

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There are two things that are constantly overlooked when considering so-called dirty riding. The first is speedway and thinking distance . Even on the slowest part of a small track the riders are exiting the bends at around 30 mph which has a thinking distance of around 9 metres per second. In other words a rider will travel something like 5-6 metres between thinking of something and starting to do it. If a rider wants to execute a dirty move he somehow has to work out where both he and the opponent will be on the track some distance ahead. Frankly I don’t think many so called instances of dirty riding really are. They are more often stupid, wild or over enthusiastic, often with Adrenalin taking over. It is after all , a very tough sport.

The other thing is who decides where the border line is between hard riding and dirty riding. I remember Lee Richardson telling me years ago that at the top level, all of them , even Mr Nice Guy Greg Hancock are very, very hard men, and if they weren’t they wouldn’t be at the top. So once again we come back to the fact that it is a very tough sport, and at times the border between hard and dirty can easily and inadvertently be crossed.

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Zagar has a nasty streak. Seen him turn right on riders at Kirky lane..

Ronnie Pedersen was a nut case when he rode for Peterborough..

Others that spring to mind are Preben Eriksen and Tim Hunt, but there's a fine line between hard and dirty riding....Freddie Lindgren is riding that line.

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1 hour ago, uk_martin said:

If you slow the video down you'll see a definite flick of the Tomicek's back wheel into Lyons which causes Lyons to career into the fence. It doesn't really matter how much room there is outside, if you are pushed from the inside you are going to suffer the consequences. All that room on the outside does is give you a longer route into the fence.

I think that both instances you have to ask was it intentional?

The Morris/ McAllen incident, Morris is behind McAllen he can clearly see where McAllen, certainly looked suspect.

The Tomicek/ Lyons incident Tomicek is in front and unless he had eyes in the back of his head would not know exactly where Lyons was.

As for exclusion both Morris and Tomicek should have been excluded.  

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11 minutes ago, E I Addio said:

There are two things that are constantly overlooked when considering so-called dirty riding. The first is speedway and thinking distance . Even on the slowest part of a small track the riders are exiting the bends at around 30 mph which has a thinking distance of around 9 metres per second. In other words a rider will travel something like 5-6 metres between thinking of something and starting to do it. If a rider wants to execute a dirty move he somehow has to work out where both he and the opponent will be on the track some distance ahead. Frankly I don’t think many so called instances of dirty riding really are. They are more often stupid, wild or over enthusiastic, often with Adrenalin taking over. It is after all , a very tough sport.

The other thing is who decides where the border line is between hard riding and dirty riding. I remember Lee Richardson telling me years ago that at the top level, all of them , even Mr Nice Guy Greg Hancock are very, very hard men, and if they weren’t they wouldn’t be at the top. So once again we come back to the fact that it is a very tough sport, and at times the border between hard and dirty can easily and inadvertently be crossed.

I think that's a pretty fair assessment overal. I was never a fan of Simon Cross (who infamously walked out on Oxford when he was set upon by team mate Ashley Pullen in the pits!) but Cradley fans idolised him with that awful nickname of "Pyscho". His riding often went beyond reproach and I remember when, in the same meeting, he took both Simon Wigg and Andy Grahame out on the first bend in different races leaving them with no where to go. I would say quite openly that it was premeditated having been at the meeting and having the DVD also...Simon Wigg was less than complimentary about his actions.

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