News For Twk

[steve roberts 9,242]

 

There isn't anything to disagree on. You are wrong. John Berry was wrong.

 

Daveallan above who has all the statistics has confirmed you are wrong.

 

Now, you can either act like an adult, learn something and move on, or you can continue acting like an internet troll.

I suggest you read my comment above whereby I respected Davealian's findings but that was never my issue and never doubted that the Tactical Substitute Regulation was flawless in whatever guise as I have quite clearly stated in my previous posts on the subject...as for internet troll?

 

There isn't anything to disagree on. You are wrong. John Berry was wrong.

 

Daveallan above who has all the statistics has confirmed you are wrong.

 

Now, you can either act like an adult, learn something and move on, or you can continue acting like an internet troll.

 

There is absolutely no comparison between a substitution in football and a 'tactical substitution' in speedway. It beggars belief that anyone can seriously compare the two.

 

However, if you really want to go down that route and claim they are similar, your argument holds no water anyway as both teams can make subs in football.. not just the team losing.

 

I do agree with you in preferring the old system to double points so there is common ground.

Then we'll leave it at that then. Time to move on I think.

Edited April 24, 2017 by steve roberts

[daveallan81 330]

Thanks for that. I respect your findings regarding recent years however I have no working knowledge or understanding of current speedway regulations and have stated all along that my views and opinions were based on my experiences of attending speedway up until 2003.

 

Interesting all the same.

 

I have found my original post buried in a thread entitled "Anyone Else Considering Walking Away From Speedway?" from September 2016.

 

" These figures include all EL & PL matches from 2014, 2015 and this season up to Sunday past, the 18th.

Total matches: 851

Teams using TR: 519 (60.98% of matches saw at least one TR)

Resulting in a win: 19 (3.66%)

A draw: 1 (0.19%)

A loss: 499 (96.15%)

I've used 1977 & 78 for the TS comparison. Note that TS rides taken by reserves are NOT included, only rides by a member of the 1-5 have been counted. It's not always possible to pinpoint a reserve taking a TS so best to exclude them for a bit more accuracy.

Total matches: 1406

Teams using TS: 1124 (79.94% of matches saw at least one TS)

Resulting in a win: 41 (3.65%)

A draw: 25 (2.22%)

A loss: 1058 (94.13%) "

Complete original post here http://www.speedway-forum.co.uk/forums/index.php?showtopic=82765&page=8&do=findComment&comment=2851526

Apologies for my inaccurate recollections earlier.

[The White Knight 9,039]

But what are the facts? As I have indicated heat formulae have altered over the years so it's very difficult, if impossible, to compare like with like as the examples I gave in an earlier post indicated.

Personally I'm not sure why people have an issue with tactical moves in sport...in football a defender maybe replaced by an attacker in the hope of pulling a goal back or vice versa. I'm sure that tactical ploys are also active in other sports. I just didn't like the 'double points' scenario later adopted in speedway...wasn't the system abused during a Speedway World Cup Final or something? I can't recall the facts (after my time!).

Jason Crump and Nicki Pedersen fighting for last place so they could play their 'Joker' ( :rofl: :rofl: ) if I remember correctly. I could be wrong about the reason - but it was definitely those two Riders and it was in the World Cup.

 

Pathetic really.

[orion 7,615]

And riders dropping points so there team could go to six behind was common place under the old rules .its amazing old fans thought that was ok but when it happened in the world cup they were up in arms about it ..another case of memory loss

[steve roberts 9,242]

 

 

I have found my original post buried in a thread entitled "Anyone Else Considering Walking Away From Speedway?" from September 2016.

 

" These figures include all EL & PL matches from 2014, 2015 and this season up to Sunday past, the 18th.

Total matches: 851

Teams using TR: 519 (60.98% of matches saw at least one TR)

Resulting in a win: 19 (3.66%)

A draw: 1 (0.19%)

A loss: 499 (96.15%)

I've used 1977 & 78 for the TS comparison. Note that TS rides taken by reserves are NOT included, only rides by a member of the 1-5 have been counted. It's not always possible to pinpoint a reserve taking a TS so best to exclude them for a bit more accuracy.

Total matches: 1406

Teams using TS: 1124 (79.94% of matches saw at least one TS)

Resulting in a win: 41 (3.65%)

A draw: 25 (2.22%)

A loss: 1058 (94.13%) "

Complete original post here http://www.speedway-forum.co.uk/forums/index.php?showtopic=82765&page=8&do=findComment&comment=2851526

Apologies for my inaccurate recollections earlier.

 

Fascinating piece of work...thanks for the information.

Jason Crump and Nicki Pedersen fighting for last place so they could play their 'Joker' ( :rofl: :rofl: ) if I remember correctly. I could be wrong about the reason - but it was definitely those two Riders and it was in the World Cup.

 

Pathetic really.

Thanks...I remember reading something at the time.

[Sidney the robin 4,735]

Typical speedway fan.

 

Try engaging your brain and actually thinking for yourself instead of blindly believing what someone else has said.

If Berry said something and you said something who would i listen to? i am afraid it wouldnt be you.Nothing personnel but say what you like about Berry he knew his speedway but the most important thing was he cared about the sport as well.

There isn't anything to disagree on. You are wrong. John Berry was wrong.

 

Daveallan above who has all the statistics has confirmed you are wrong.

 

Now, you can either act like an adult, learn something and move on, or you can continue acting like an internet troll.

 

There is absolutely no comparison between a substitution in football and a 'tactical substitution' in speedway. It beggars belief that anyone can seriously compare the two.

However, if you really want to go down that route and claim they are similar, your argument holds no water anyway as both teams can make subs in football.. not just the team losing.

I do agree with you in preferring the old system to double points so there is common ground.

Is every subject you discuss about BEING RIGHT/WRONG? Edited April 25, 2017 by Sidney the robin

[steve roberts 9,242]

If Berry said something and you said something who would i listen to? i am afraid it wouldnt be you.Nothing personnel but say what you like about Berry he knew his speedway but the most important thing was he cared about the sport as well.

Is every subject you discuss about BEING RIGHT/WRONG?

Morning Sid! I once recall eavesdropping on a conversation between John and some initially irate Oxford fans at Cowley. He came across as both articulate and thought provoking and they ended up shaking hands generously as they parted.

 

It's interesting reading other people's personal experiences with him and it appears that there was two sides to a very complex and private person.

 

Regarding the quote from John that I placed on this particular thread I think that some people need to read it again as it clearly indicated that the tactical Substitute ruling had it's flaws in his view.

[Sidney the robin 4,735]

Morning Sid! I once recall eavesdropping on a conversation between John and some initially irate Oxford fans at Cowley. He came across as both articulate and thought provoking and they ended up shaking hands generously as they parted.

 

It's interesting reading other people's personal experiences with him and it appears that there was two sides to a very complex and private person.

 

Regarding the quote from John that I placed on this particular thread I think that some people need to read it again as it clearly indicated that the tactical Substitute ruling had it's flaws in his view.

A guy i know who i respect greatly,was great friends with Billy Sanders he told me he held Mr Berry in high esteem.Michael Lee/Sanders were both helped alot over the years by JB they both were close we know John had his flaws like all of us but his views i respected greatly.

[steve roberts 9,242]

A guy i know who i respect greatly,was great friends with Billy Sanders he told me he held Mr Berry in high esteem.Michael Lee/Sanders were both helped alot over the years by JB they both were close we know John had his flaws like all of us but his views i respected greatly.

Very sad what happened to Billy and John Berry carried that mental burden for years...probably to his dying day...thinking that he could have done more.

Edited April 25, 2017 by steve roberts

[BWitcher 12,453]

If Berry said something and you said something who would i listen to? i am afraid it wouldnt be you.Nothing personnel but say what you like about Berry he knew his speedway but the most important thing was he cared about the sport as well.

Is every subject you discuss about BEING RIGHT/WRONG?

 

The debate wasn't about Berry, his skills as a promoter or whether he knew his speedway.

 

Just his comment over the tactical ride which was incorrect.

 

Over and over you have a pop at me for discussing a topic I claim I am right on. Well, you'd have to be a blithering idiot to argue something you were wrong on... funny how you are often on that side of the fence.

 

Like yourself I enjoyed reading what Berry had to say about the sport and he had a lot of knowledge.

Edited April 25, 2017 by BWitcher

[Humphrey Appleby 13,951]

Regarding the quote from John that I placed on this particular thread I think that some people need to read it again as it clearly indicated that the tactical Substitute ruling had it's flaws in his view.

I've got some correspondence from him on this subject, and whilst I don't have it immediately to hand, my recollection was he considered keeping matches close more important than 'fairness', especially for away teams. It also keep fans involved in the meeting through speculation of what changes might be made, although I think there was acknowledgement the rule tended to favour top heavy teams which was apparently a bugbear of Len Silver in particular. However, he certainly seemed to favour some sort of tactical option, although stated a preference for tactical subs over double points.

 

I can well imagine that the tactical sub rule had a bigger impact on results than tactical rides because you could bring in a better rider in place of another at any time (if 6 points down of course) whereas you have to rely on the heat formula falling your way with the tactical ride. In most circumstances you'd want to have your best or at least second best rider taking the tactical ride, but they're not necessarily going to be programmed in the next heat.

 

This said, a tactical substitute still has to score points the same way as everyone else, so I think ultimately has more credibility than double points. For me, I think tactical substitutes should only be allowed when a team is at least 8 points down as there's too much advantage when only 6 behind, but I don't have any problem with the basic premise.

[Seymour Dix 1,988]

 

I've got some correspondence from him on this subject, and whilst I don't have it immediately to hand, my recollection was he considered keeping matches close more important than 'fairness', especially for away teams. It also keep fans involved in the meeting through speculation of what changes might be made, although I think there was acknowledgement the rule tended to favour top heavy teams which was apparently a bugbear of Len Silver in particular. However, he certainly seemed to favour some sort of tactical option, although stated a preference for tactical subs over double points.

 

I can well imagine that the tactical sub rule had a bigger impact on results than tactical rides because you could bring in a better rider in place of another at any time (if 6 points down of course) whereas you have to rely on the heat formula falling your way with the tactical ride. In most circumstances you'd want to have your best or at least second best rider taking the tactical ride, but they're not necessarily going to be programmed in the next heat.

 

This said, a tactical substitute still has to score points the same way as everyone else, so I think ultimately has more credibility than double points. For me, I think tactical substitutes should only be allowed when a team is at least 8 points down as there's too much advantage when only 6 behind, but I don't have any problem with the basic premise.

I agree except for ten points behind, and only one per match

[BWitcher 12,453]

I've got some correspondence from him on this subject, and whilst I don't have it immediately to hand, my recollection was he considered keeping matches close more important than 'fairness', especially for away teams. It also keep fans involved in the meeting through speculation of what changes might be made, although I think there was acknowledgement the rule tended to favour top heavy teams which was apparently a bugbear of Len Silver in particular. However, he certainly seemed to favour some sort of tactical option, although stated a preference for tactical subs over double points.

 

I can well imagine that the tactical sub rule had a bigger impact on results than tactical rides because you could bring in a better rider in place of another at any time (if 6 points down of course) whereas you have to rely on the heat formula falling your way with the tactical ride. In most circumstances you'd want to have your best or at least second best rider taking the tactical ride, but they're not necessarily going to be programmed in the next heat.

 

This said, a tactical substitute still has to score points the same way as everyone else, so I think ultimately has more credibility than double points. For me, I think tactical substitutes should only be allowed when a team is at least 8 points down as there's too much advantage when only 6 behind, but I don't have any problem with the basic premise.

 

Good post, agree with all of that.

[steve roberts 9,242]

I've got some correspondence from him on this subject, and whilst I don't have it immediately to hand, my recollection was he considered keeping matches close more important than 'fairness', especially for away teams. It also keep fans involved in the meeting through speculation of what changes might be made, although I think there was acknowledgement the rule tended to favour top heavy teams which was apparently a bugbear of Len Silver in particular. However, he certainly seemed to favour some sort of tactical option, although stated a preference for tactical subs over double points.

 

I can well imagine that the tactical sub rule had a bigger impact on results than tactical rides because you could bring in a better rider in place of another at any time (if 6 points down of course) whereas you have to rely on the heat formula falling your way with the tactical ride. In most circumstances you'd want to have your best or at least second best rider taking the tactical ride, but they're not necessarily going to be programmed in the next heat.

 

This said, a tactical substitute still has to score points the same way as everyone else, so I think ultimately has more credibility than double points. For me, I think tactical substitutes should only be allowed when a team is at least 8 points down as there's too much advantage when only 6 behind, but I don't have any problem with the basic premise.

Interesting post and there are aspects of that to which he referred to in his book (quoting Uncle Len) that is very familiar. A bit different to suggesting that he was wrong as has been stated but only that he was stating his preference and his dislike of the double points scenario which is what I was trying to imply when I posted a quote from his book.

 

Thanks for your input and clarification regarding what John had implied and your view on the matter.

Edited April 25, 2017 by steve roberts

[Sidney the robin 4,735]

The debate wasn't about Berry, his skills as a promoter or whether he knew his speedway.

 

Just his comment over the tactical ride which was incorrect.

 

Over and over you have a pop at me for discussing a topic I claim I am right on. Well, you'd have to be a blithering idiot to argue something you were wrong on... funny how you are often on that side of the fence.

 

Like yourself I enjoyed reading what Berry had to say about the sport and he had a lot of knowledge.

Debating anything with you it is odvious i am always going to be the loser being right or wrong means nothing to me the banter is the most important thing.One thing we agree on is John Berry and what a telling contribution he made to speedway he is up there with the Varey,s ,Fearman, Dent Oliver, (ect).