Sidney the robin 4,735 Posted June 12, 2017 What order would you have these five great champions in.? Craven ,Collins,Lee,Woffinden,Loram - here goes - 1./Craven 2./Collins 3./Lee 4./ Woffinden 5./Loram. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted June 12, 2017 What order would you have these five great champions in.? Craven ,Collins,Lee,Woffinden,Loram - here goes - 1./Craven 2./Collins 3./Lee 4./ Woffinden 5./Loram. Is this for a time frame period Sidney the robin or since the start of speedway in the UK in 1928? Your list apart from Peter Craven tends to reflect from the 1980s onwards. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steve roberts 9,246 Posted June 12, 2017 (edited) What order would you have these five great champions in.? Craven ,Collins,Lee,Woffinden,Loram - here goes - 1./Craven 2./Collins 3./Lee 4./ Woffinden 5./Loram. Difficult one Sid with different eras and comparing one-off World Final achievements with a GP format. For example Loram became World Champion without winning any particular round which, personally, I have always under-valued but that's what GPs are all about...not proving that you are the best on a particular occasion but picking up overall accumulative points to achieve the end result. Never having seen Peter Craven (unfortunately) I have to base my views on those I have seen and based on World Champion successes (not necessarily only Individual ) Peter Collins would come out top in my poll based on his overall contribution. Michael Lee had a dramatic rise to fame over a relative short period and although he won the Championship in 1980 he achieved more the previous year. Never seen Tai and I realise that any views about him appear to raise very emotive issues and based on individual successes I guess would make him top but as I've said it's difficult comparing different eras. Like the great John Berry I always tend to base 'greatness' on overall achievements including league and international successes hence why Peter would be top man in my poll. Edited June 12, 2017 by steve roberts Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted June 12, 2017 What order would you have these five great champions in.? Craven ,Collins,Lee,Woffinden,Loram - here goes - 1./Craven 2./Collins 3./Lee 4./ Woffinden 5./Loram. Is this for a time frame period Sidney the robin or since the start of speedway in the UK in 1928? Your list apart from Peter Craven tends to reflect from the 1980s onwards. My very sincere apologies Sidney the robin. I now understand that the point you were making was in regard to "...who is the best of the five riders named..." and NOT as I mistakenly thought as to who were British speedway all time greats. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
waiheke1 4,295 Posted June 12, 2017 Woffy imo has to be ahead of lee. I could see an argument for him being anywhere from 1-3. I agree with the order you have the others sid. Loram someway short of the others imo. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steve roberts 9,246 Posted June 12, 2017 (edited) What order would you have these five great champions in.? Craven ,Collins,Lee,Woffinden,Loram - here goes - 1./Craven 2./Collins 3./Lee 4./ Woffinden 5./Loram. Sid you've left out Havelock? Personally he would never appear in any of my 'top lists'! Edited June 12, 2017 by steve roberts Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted June 12, 2017 Think it's fair to say that Havvy had one stellar year in 1992 when he won virtually everything going. All credit to him for becoming World Champion. It was a shame that due to injuries soon afterwards in the GP series that he became merely a good rider at domestic heat leader level rather than remaining world class. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steve roberts 9,246 Posted June 12, 2017 Think it's fair to say that Havvy had one stellar year in 1992 when he won virtually everything going. All credit to him for becoming World Champion. It was a shame that due to injuries soon afterwards in the GP series that he became merely a good rider at domestic heat leader level rather than remaining world class. Fair point. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lucifer sam 3,953 Posted June 12, 2017 (edited) What order would you have these five great champions in.? Craven ,Collins,Lee,Woffinden,Loram - here goes - 1./Craven 2./Collins 3./Lee 4./ Woffinden 5./Loram. Probably that order there. Incidentally, if he was in the list, I would probably place Tommy Price ahead of Mark Loram, as much as Loram was one of the most entertaining riders I've ever seen. If all 8 British World Champions were included, I'd plump for: 1. Craven 2. Collins 3. Lee 4. Woffinden 5. Price 6. Loram 7. Williams 8. Havelock (possibly the weakest-ever World Champion, though he has competition from Muller and Holder, with IMO Szczakiel just above those three). All the best Rob Edited June 12, 2017 by lucifer sam Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest compost Posted June 12, 2017 Of the 5 listed Craven, Collins, Woffinden, Lee, Loram Of the 8 British champions Craven, Collins, Williams, Price, Woffinden, Lee, Havelock, Loram Don't forget that Havelock didn't have just one season on the world stage, he did become World Junior champion too. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
waiheke1 4,295 Posted June 12, 2017 Don't know how you can have williams ahead of woffy. Woffy was best rider in the world the 2 years he won the world title (ok maybe some argument hampel was the best rider the year of title 1), I don't think the same can be said of Williams. I'll go: Woffy craven Collins lee Williams Price Loram Havelock And I disagree with Rob. The year Havvy was world champ he was clearly one of the top 3 or 4 riders in the world. You could not say the same of Muller or Sckaziel. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sidney the robin 4,735 Posted June 12, 2017 (edited) My very sincere apologies Sidney the robin. I now understand that the point you were making was in regard to "...who is the best of the five riders named..." and NOT as I mistakenly thought as to who were British speedway all time greats. Thats ok "gustix"😀 Edited June 12, 2017 by Sidney the robin Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Grachan 7,362 Posted June 12, 2017 Woffy imo has to be ahead of lee. I could see an argument for him being anywhere from 1-3. I agree with the order you have the others sid. Loram someway short of the others imo. Lee is a tricky one. On form I'd say he was one of the best riders I ever saw, alongside Mauger and Nielsen. But this was short lived. Do you judge him on his top form or on his longevity? On his top form I'd put him as the best of the 5 (although I never saw Craven so would have to go on what I have read), but taking longevity into account he'd maybe be as low as fourth. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Midland Red 2,383 Posted June 12, 2017 What order would you have these five great champions in.? Craven ,Collins,Lee,Woffinden,Loram - here goes - 1./Craven 2./Collins 3./Lee 4./ Woffinden 5./Loram. Have seen them all, so . . . Craven Lee Collins Loram Woffinden Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sidney the robin 4,735 Posted June 12, 2017 Williams has to be high up but i didnt include him i only went back as far as Craven . It might seem silly but i think winning a one/off final maybe could of been harder than winning a series.Hence why Loram is low down ( great rider still exciting to watch as anyone in history) a one off final was a different pressure . The reason i have Lee so high up is his record against Nielsen,/ Gundo he held his own and after he self destructed those two went on and dominated a decade. Have seen them all, so . . . Craven Lee Collins Loram Woffinden Really interesting that Red, and Grachan has a great point in the word Longevity means alot . Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
