The Tapes & Unsatisfactory Starts

[BangerBoy 47]

I understand the current rules state that riders have to sit still at the start and any movement can result in an unsatisfactory start and the race being stopped. This happens on far too many occasions and I agree with most people that if this rule is to persist then there should be no going back to the pits. It would still delay meetings though.

 

However, why not let the riders move? Let them move as much as they want and if they get a flyer great stuff. We all watch meetings where certain gates are graves, well if they could move maybe it would be a leveller? If by moving though they touch the tapes then obviously they're out.

 

No more unsatisfactory starts and the meetings would run more smoothly.

 

Just a thought and apologies if this topic has been covered. I was reading the comments on the BT Coverage thread about meetings running over scheduled times and fans missing the ends of match.

 

Don't worry about apologies more people to read this so hopefully someone will get rid of this stupid rule as it is at the moment.

 

Let's make it simple touch the tapes your out no questions

[oldywonkenoldi 36]

As I have stated before, Why not get rid of tapes and use the method that BMX use, solid metal gate which lowers and all riders have to be touching the gate at the green light, then riders can do what they want, once it drops. Of course it would have to drop slightly below ground level so no obstruction. No touching tapes problem, no flyers, no exclusions, customers get what they have paid for, 4 riders per heat all off the same line, and as to cost, no more or less than air fences

[IronScorpion 1,405]

OK, to counter that possibility, simply paint a white line say 30cm behind the tapes and the front wheel must be on or infront of it or something to that effect. Certainly not impossible to stop massive rollers.

shockstar, check You Tube clips of any heat from meetings this year & you will notice that there is a second line approx. 430mm behind the start line. This means that the front wheel axle should not be behind this line meaning the front wheel should be within the 75mm allowed from the tapes. This is still not fully enforced this year by the start marshalls resulting in the riders rocking back into the top of the groove to give them "rollers".

There are a couple of topics elsewhere on new starting procedures.

 

http://www.speedway-forum.co.uk/forums/index.php?showtopic=71828&do=findComment&comment=2193302

[A ORLOV 8,628]

As I have stated before, Why not get rid of tapes and use the method that BMX use, solid metal gate which lowers and all riders have to be touching the gate at the green light, then riders can do what they want, once it drops. Of course it would have to drop slightly below ground level so no obstruction. No touching tapes problem, no flyers, no exclusions, customers get what they have paid for, 4 riders per heat all off the same line, and as to cost, no more or less than air fences

Sounds good but it would not take too long for the recess that the gate goes into to fill up with shale and stop the gates receding below the racing surface. If the clogging issue could be sorted then the start system might be good.

What ever happens they have got to sort something out as most people are fed up with restarts.

Edited July 5, 2017 by A ORLOV

[Bald Bloke 3,281]

As I have stated before, Why not get rid of tapes and use the method that BMX use, solid metal gate which lowers and all riders have to be touching the gate at the green light, then riders can do what they want, once it drops. Of course it would have to drop slightly below ground level so no obstruction. No touching tapes problem, no flyers, no exclusions, customers get what they have paid for, 4 riders per heat all off the same line, and as to cost, no more or less than air fences

Good idea.I don't know if the rear tyres would grip on the metal gate and cause them to rear up.They would have to be able to be taken up for blading the track ect,but be solid so they don't move on the start., i would have thought.

Deffo worth someone looking into it though

[dontforgetthefueltapsbruv 10,692]

The metal gates sunk into the track is a non starter *pun intended

 

In MotoX they dont go back over the start as in Speedway

There is no multi use in MotoX either - couldnt have it where stocks share the facility

Could list a few more but Id say thats enough already

 

Re letting riders roll so long as dont hit the tapes. No thanks from me - its cheating now and should remain so.

[False dawn 2,291]

I recall when they brought in tape touching as an offence (yes that was a long time ago). It was mayhem and some riders (Kelvin Tatum was one as I recall) said it would never work and the rules were stifling good racing. But within a season, riders learned to come to the tapes, sit still and not touch the tapes. Now we have a certain breed of riders who are working hard to anticipate the start. So what do we do? Let them play silly buggers? Go back to charging the tapes? Allow anything as long as it doesn't cause the odd stoppage/delay? Well no. Don't relax the rules because riders are not prepared to obey them. Referees are paid to judge what is and what isn't a fair start. Oh I know, we all watch the reruns and say that was a perfect start, but without electronic assistance we have to rely on the referee's judgement. The idea of the warning and that warning remaining in force for the rest of the meeting seems a very effective device to make riders sit still. A bit more of an unpredictable period between the green light and the tapes going up will help. This doesn't mean holding the riders for an inordinate time either. A shorter period is just as effective. The, "Oh it's Burt on the button tonight. Just count to 3 and drop the clutch and hey presto" syndrome has to go. Where has the "punishing a rider by his own actions" technique gone? I'll teach the little bugger to sit still. If he moves and pulls up I'll let the tapes go and he'll end up dead last.

This isn't rocket science.

[cyclone 943]

 

if the rest of the sports world have technology to detect those who react to quickly, why can't speedway also have that?

The mean human response time for visual stimuli is about 290milliseconds .

Imo develop a system with transponders which will detect if anyone is moving when the green light is on and if any rider is reacting too quickly.

 

I think a transponder system is the only way to truly separate good starts from chance starts and rolling starts. Until such system is in place

there will be rolling starts and chance starts that will be unnoticed and there will be good starts that will be called back.

 

Imo stricter marshalling would also reduce the likeliness of rolling starts succeeding. If the riders are forced (exclude anyone not obeying)

to have front wheel 2 cm from the tapes then it will be harder to roll since if they do they will do a T/T.

 

Also when it comes to 2min exclusions/gardening. If the referees actually would start to enforce 2min violations then the riders would adjust and

actually making sure that they are ready when the 2 min expires = problem solved. 2 min is 120 seconds not 121 or 123 seconds and neither is it 118 seconds.

They can do as much gardening as they like as long as they are ready with the front wheel at the tapes when those 120 seconds are up.

 

I have no technical knowledge of transponders, but the above, taken from an earlier topic sounds like a possible solution.

 

It also appears that races could be started by means of lights, as per motor racing, thereby dispensing with unreliable starting gate & tapes.

 

Does anyone know if this has been considered or trialed previously?

[martinmauger 584]

Remember the 1972 World Final, in particular, whereby some riders were so far back from the tapes that they were getting enormous flyers and the referee letting it go much to the bemusement of some that were present.

The starts in 1973 World Final were equally varied, some riders not within 10ft of the line when the tapes went up. Mauger rode in both finals of course, with very different results, especially in the run-offs...........

 

My pet hate: endless re-runs, all 4 back to the start - not to the pits helmets off for a 5 minute chat with their mates. Once rider are on track the pit gate should remain closed, in the event of an unsatisfactory start, with no rides falling, all riders return to start line immediately, refuelling is not required as speedway bikes can easily travel 4 laps + 30 yards + 1 slow 3/4 lap on one tankful. Unless there is a problem with the bike and then the machine examiner should open the pit gate allow limmited time to fix the bike. By 'problem' I refer to a loose or overtight chain, or something loose on the bike, not the fact the rider realises his set-up is incorrect....

Edited July 6, 2017 by Martin Mauger

[hulvik 73]

You only have to go on YouTube and watch some of the races from before the no touching rule came in to see the rules around the start were bent as much as the tapes. But in truth while some rides got away with flyers on the whole it didn’t really have any effect on the overall out come of meets ( but I’m sure somebody will be only to happy to state differently to that) .

As things stand we have endless reruns and a period at the start where the riders do more digging than a farmer putting in next years spuds, slowing the whole meeting down. Because starts have become so important as a result of trying to make them so clinical. Under the old rules the only reruns you tended to get of a tapes offence was when a rider actually broke them.

Personally it doesn’t bother me if a rider touches the tapes or tries to anticipate the start if they get away with it good luck to them

Maybe the most simple thing is to take the human element out of the start and once the green light goes on the delay till the tapes goes up is done on a random electronic time delay ( As I believe somebody as already suggested )

[FAST GATER 847]

IMO it all boils down to the fact riders in general can either gate or not ,what ever rules that were dreamed up Mauger would always on average out gate PC .

Edited July 6, 2017 by FAST GATER

[waytogo28 2,054]

I recall when they brought in tape touching as an offence (yes that was a long time ago). It was mayhem and some riders (Kelvin Tatum was one as I recall) said it would never work and the rules were stifling good racing. But within a season, riders learned to come to the tapes, sit still and not touch the tapes. Now we have a certain breed of riders who are working hard to anticipate the start. So what do we do? Let them play silly buggers? Go back to charging the tapes? Allow anything as long as it doesn't cause the odd stoppage/delay? Well no. Don't relax the rules because riders are not prepared to obey them. Referees are paid to judge what is and what isn't a fair start. Oh I know, we all watch the reruns and say that was a perfect start, but without electronic assistance we have to rely on the referee's judgement. The idea of the warning and that warning remaining in force for the rest of the meeting seems a very effective device to make riders sit still. A bit more of an unpredictable period between the green light and the tapes going up will help. This doesn't mean holding the riders for an inordinate time either. A shorter period is just as effective. The, "Oh it's Burt on the button tonight. Just count to 3 and drop the clutch and hey presto" syndrome has to go. Where has the "punishing a rider by his own actions" technique gone? I'll teach the little bugger to sit still. If he moves and pulls up I'll let the tapes go and he'll end up dead last.

This isn't rocket science.

 

It's not rocket science but it is a scientific approach and speedway is renowned for still being in the early 20th century re how the sport should be run ( 1928 ). As speedway got into the second half of the last century ( say 1965 ) it was deemed perfect by the BSPA and only tinkering has been allowed since. They just failed to notice the falling off of crowd levels in the last 30 years or so. If there is anything left of the professional sport by the 2028 Centenary - then, who knows a scientific approach might be considered.

[Gemini 4,894]

 

 

....False dawn......Where has the "punishing a rider by his own actions" technique gone? I'll teach the little bugger to sit still. If he moves and pulls up I'll let the tapes go and he'll end up dead last.

This isn't rocket science.

 

You were at Peterborough last Sunday so you'll probably recall a race when this happened. I don't remember who the rider was, except that he was in Red, or who the referee was but he jumped at the start and just stopped himself from hitting the tapes. That was when the referee let them go and he was last out of the gate. It can be done.

[IronScorpion 1,405]

Posted 16 September 2016 - 04:31 PM

 

A system could be used similar to motor racing. Transponders used to monitor movement, do away with tapes & have an overhead/track canopy 20/25metres down from the start with red lights for ready & then green for go. All the riders are facing forward which eliminates the chance of riders on gates 1 & 4 moving slightly with the riders on 2 & 3 going & getting penalized

[TheScotsman 2,482]

Riders should certainly be looking ahead at the start, not craning there neck around another rider.

So the suggestion above has merit.