Havvy's Golden Glory

[waiheke1 4,295]

Fair enough, but are you going to answer the question?

 

Steve

No he's not.

But the important question here is: Is Gary Havelock the rider's name or the name of his sponsor?

[Guest]

 

I don't recall suggesting Havelock was an "all time great" either. Not once. However suggesting that he was only "very good" is doing him a huge disservice. I wouldn't rate him with any of those riders that have one more than one title, including Woffinden, but that isn't to say that at the peak of his powers he wasn't one of the best around, because he was.

 

You have summarised Dave the Mic very much my own opinion in regard to the merit and ability of Gary Havelock.

[fatface 2,549]

He probably gets unfairly pigeon-holed with Jerzy Szczakiel and Egon Muller in terms of one-off World Champs and that's probably a bit unfair. Both those guys would never ever have won the title outside their own countries in unique circumstances.

 

Havelock won in unfamiliar territory against a tough field including Ermolenko, Jonsson, Rickardsson etc. by putting together a series of great starts and delivering on the big night. Fair play. I would rate him below all the other British Champions and he's never in the debate when it comes to all-time greats, but in 1992 at least, he was right up there at the very top level.

[waiheke1 4,295]

He probably gets unfairly pigeon-holed with Jerzy Szczakiel and Egon Muller in terms of one-off World Champs and that's probably a bit unfair. Both those guys would never ever have won the title outside their own countries in unique circumstances.

 

Havelock won in unfamiliar territory against a tough field including Ermolenko, Jonsson, Rickardsson etc. by putting together a series of great starts and delivering on the big night. Fair play. I would rate him below all the other British Champions and he's never in the debate when it comes to all-time greats, but in 1992 at least, he was right up there at the very top level.

Comparison might be if KC hadn't fallen off and les Collins ended up world champ in 82. Havvy in 92 was better than Collins in 82

[steve roberts 9,242]

He probably gets unfairly pigeon-holed with Jerzy Szczakiel and Egon Muller in terms of one-off World Champs and that's probably a bit unfair. Both those guys would never ever have won the title outside their own countries in unique circumstances.

 

Havelock won in unfamiliar territory against a tough field including Ermolenko, Jonsson, Rickardsson etc. by putting together a series of great starts and delivering on the big night. Fair play. I would rate him below all the other British Champions and he's never in the debate when it comes to all-time greats, but in 1992 at least, he was right up there at the very top level.

...but no Nielsen!

[waiheke1 4,295]

...but no Nielsen!

True, but does anyone claim PCs world title says devalued by Olsen being missing from the field? Or Lee with Mauger absent - in both cases the reigning champ missing, as was Jan O in 92

[Guest]

He probably gets unfairly pigeon-holed with Jerzy Szczakiel and Egon Muller in terms of one-off World Champs and that's probably a bit unfair. Both those guys would never ever have won the title outside their own countries in unique circumstances.

 

 

How do these victories equate with what you emphasise falcate. These winners were at Wembley where they were members of the home team:

1936 Lionel Van Praag (Australia).

1949 Tommy Price (England).

1950 Freddie Williams (Wales).

1953 Freddie Wiliams (Wales).

 

And this list of Wembley winners from 1936 until 1957 shows riders who were also British-based and raced regularly in league, cup and individual events at the stadium.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Individual_Speedway_World_Championship_medalists

 

All these facts should be considered when seeking to NOT justify the wins by Jerzy Szackiel in Poland in 1973 and Egon Muller in Germany in 1983.

Edited September 15, 2017 by Guest

[chunky 6,087]

 

All these facts should be considered when seeking to NOT justify the wins by Jerzy Szackiel in Poland in 1973 and Egon Muller in Germany in 1983.

Do you think that all facts should be considered when seeking to substantiate your own personal feelings by NOT responding to a simple and perfectly justified question asked by another forum member?

 

Or do you feel that you, - as an individual - are qualified to issue statements with having to respond? Of course, you have a marked tendency to pick and choose what criteria you use - or ignore - when you feel fit, and I am sure I m not the only one who has noticed the hypocrisy in much of what you write.

 

For instance, you freely admit that that you are still interested in the "history" of the sport, although I am not sure of the historical period of which you speak. Very recently, you stated on this forum that post-70's speedway was "meaningless" to you. If that is the case, how are you such an expert on Gary Havelock and Tai Woffinden?

 

Likewise, if post-70's speedway was "meaningless:, why did you take it upon yourself to change the guidelines of a Facebook speedway speedway group? The owner of the group clearly stated that the timeline to be considered was pre-1990, yet you you started posting post-1990 items, and "justified" that by issuing statements that the group had been founded a couple of years previously, and should therefore now be including items up to 1992! Then again, you posted a photo to the group of an adult Jason Crump, believing it to be from the 1980's...

 

All very interesting when these items are from a time period which for you, was "meaningless"... It just makes it worse when you feel that you are above answering a straightforward question from waihekeaces1.

 

Steve

[steve roberts 9,242]

True, but does anyone claim PCs world title says devalued by Olsen being missing from the field? Or Lee with Mauger absent - in both cases the reigning champ missing, as was Jan O in 92

...forgot that Jan O was also missing in 1992.

 

Nielsen was still the man to beat at that time (in my opinion) and although Mauger, as reigning champ, was missing in 1980 he was experiencing, by his high standards, a relatively poor 1980 season.

 

Of course Michanek was also absent (albeit a reserve) in 1976.

Edited September 15, 2017 by steve roberts

[iris123 20,939]

Some fair points there Steve

 

I would also point out the strange behaviour whenon a thread about legtrailers he was getting a bit irate that i posted some photos from fairly recent times which showed the style had made a comeback,if it ever 100% died away,because it was "years gone by" even though the pics were from years gone by.But just look at his thread about Wimbledon since 2002 and you will see he has posted not about years gone by,but a preview of a meeting that at that point hadn't taken place and then started posting stuff about the 70s,which also doesn't fit the bill of the thread title!!!

 

Personally i really do feel he does it for the attention

 

Oops,another Steve got in before i replied.......

Edited September 15, 2017 by iris123

[Guest]

 

Likewise, if post-70's speedway was "meaningless:, why did you take it upon yourself to change the guidelines of a Facebook speedway speedway group? The owner of the group clearly stated that the timeline to be considered was pre-1990, yet you you started posting post-1990 items, and "justified" that by issuing statements that the group had been founded a couple of years previously, and should therefore now be including items up to 1992! Then again, you posted a photo to the group of an adult Jason Crump, believing it to be from the 1980's...

 

Steve

 

The FACEBOOK group to which you refer is a follow up to a Yahoo! group of the same title which is still 'just about' functioning these days. I originally founded the Yahoo! group in 2007. It is now under new control but still active.

The FACEBOOK group was established by a person who had been appointed a Moderator on the Yahoo! group.

I along with others became members of the FACEBOOK group's administrative section. For the past three years or so the 'founder' of the FACEBOOK group has for some obscure reason 'not been available.'

The update in years on the FACEBOOK group to which you refer was indeed made by me - but only after consultation with others who are still established on its Admin section.

[chunky 6,087]

 

The FACEBOOK group to which you refer is a follow up to a Yahoo! group of the same title which is still 'just about' functioning these days. I originally founded the Yahoo! group in 2007. It is now under new control but still active.

The FACEBOOK group was established by a person who had been appointed a Moderator on the Yahoo! group.

I along with others became members of the FACEBOOK group's administrative section. For the past three years or so the 'founder' of the FACEBOOK group has for some obscure reason 'not been available.'

The update in years on the FACEBOOK group to which you refer was indeed made by me - but only after consultation with others who are still established on its Admin section.

Fair points, but why - for someone who apparently considers the last forty or so years "meaningless" - are you so keen on a VINTAGE speedway group encompassing the material from just twenty-five years ago?

 

However, yet again you have carefully selected the text to which you wish to - or not wish to, as the case may be - respond. It's actually quite sad that you want others to accept and respect YOUR views, but you constantly refuse to show the same respect to them when all they are doing is asking you a question. I don't get why you won't use logic and reason to substantiate your point of view, unless you genuinely feel that events like the South African Championship ARE a major factor in proving the quality of an individual.

 

Steve

[Guest]

Gary Havelock's individual record: thanks to Wikipedia:

1992 World Champion

1986 British Under 21 Champion

1987 European Under-21 Champion

1991, 1992 British Champion

1992, 1995 South African Champion

1995 Premier League Riders Champion

1992 Overseas Champion

 

 

I don't get why you won't use logic and reason to substantiate your point of view, unless you genuinely feel that events like the South African Championship ARE a major factor in proving the quality of an individual.

 

Steve

 

The fact that Gary Havelock's two South African championship successes were mentioned in my Post was because they were included in a list of his titles on the Wikipedia website. If you can spare a moment to again views the Post I made - as quoted on this response - where do I actually give any emphasis to Havelock's success in South Africa? Or, for that matter any of his other championship triumphs. To me my Post looks just like a tabulation of the main events that Gary Havelock won - no more than that.

[chunky 6,087]

 

 

 

The fact that Gary Havelock's two South African championship successes were mentioned in my Post was because they were included in a list of his titles on the Wikipedia website. If you can spare a moment to again views the Post I made - as quoted on this response - where do I actually give any emphasis to Havelock's success in South Africa? Or, for that matter any of his other championship triumphs. To me my Post looks just like a tabulation of the main events that Gary Havelock won - no more than that.

It really doesn't matter how many times you post the same stuff, it really doesn't substantiate anything, but again, you have conveniently chosen to ignore the reason for my comments...

 

Please, answer the question!!!

 

Steve

[Guest]

This Link is not strictly within the remit of the thread title but some excellent photos of Gary Havelock can be viewed on it:

Berwick team manager Gary Havelock

Edited September 16, 2017 by Guest