Carter, Morton,simmons,louis,wilson What Order.?

[Gavan 5,049]

Is this some sort of trick question? Going on what they achieved:

 

1. Carter

2. Simmons

3. Louis

4. Morton

5. Wilson

[The White Knight 9,039]

WK you are a man i Respect !!! Carter at 5 really.

Hi Sid

 

Thank you for that.

 

My problem with Carter is that I never liked him and, to a point, have allowed that to colour my view of him as a Rider.

 

Plus all the other Riders you quoted were Team men. I always considered that Carter was all about Carter. Hence my positioning him as I have.

 

I hope that explains my position.

 

I know there are people who will disagree with my reasoning, but I have put it as I see it.

[fatface 2,549]

Completely and utterly biased...but, aren't we all? Morton is the most capped of all these and won everything there is to win individual and as a team internationally and domestically bar the World Title. Yep, he gets overshadowed by PC having raced in the same era. But he beats all these guys on longevity and his CV is at least equal to Simmo and better than the rest.

[Sidney the robin 4,735]

Wouldn't think you'd be surprised by me having Carter top Sid.

can't think of anyone better round Hyde Rd and the shay. And not many better round Odsal either.

He was good around Hyde Rd but the Northern Riders/ and the 83 BLRC he was not at his best also i felt the Shay was his home was not not that convinced with him at Odsal.

[customhouseregular 1,651]

Simmons

Carter

Louis

Wilson

Morton

[Sidney the robin 4,735]

Completely and utterly biased...but, aren't we all? Morton is the most capped of all these and won everything there is to win individual and as a team internationally and domestically bar the World Title. Yep, he gets overshadowed by PC having raced in the same era. But he beats all these guys on longevity and his CV is at least equal to Simmo and better than the rest.

No he is number five quite easily for me and his CV is not as good as Simmo and did he score a maximum in a peak WTC year like Wilson ? No also was he placed in a WF like Louis NO.

Hi Sid

 

Thank you for that.

 

My problem with Carter is that I never liked him and, to a point, have allowed that to colour my view of him as a Rider.

 

Plus all the other Riders you quoted were Team men. I always considered that Carter was all about Carter. Hence my positioning him as I have.

 

I hope that explains my position.

 

I know there are people who will disagree with my reasoning, but I have put it as I see it.

Yes can see your point of view WK and at club level Carter was quite a selfish rider for usually a weak Halifax team riding for England he was different.

[fatface 2,549]

No he is number five quite easily for me and his CV is not as good as Simmo and did he score a maximum in a peak WTC year like Wilson ? No also was he placed in a WF like Louis NO.

 

On the other hand....he won a BLRC unlike Simmo or Wilson (when it really meant something), he made more appearances for England than all the rest. He top scored for England in successive World Cup finals, unlike all the rest. Like Carter and Wilson, he never placed in a World Final, but he did reach more World Finals than all the rest. And if placing in a World Final is the barometer, would you rank Gordon Kennett and Les Collins (same era) above Morton, Wilson and Carter? He also won a major World Championship qualifying round in addition to the British Final unlike all the rest...

[Sidney the robin 4,735]

It did show over those few years WK something you remember Carter did fall out with alot of riders ie) PC and at that time i took Collins side.Peter was a rider everyone respected and even Eric Boocock said if only Carter could of been less brash with it looking back i do believe Carter would of made a brilliant world champion 82 he was robbed by a crazy rule.

On the other hand....he won a BLRC unlike Simmo or Wilson (when it really meant something), he made more appearances for England than all the rest. He top scored for England in successive World Cup finals, unlike all the rest. Like Carter and Wilson, he never placed in a World Final, but he did reach more World Finals than all the rest. And if placing in a World Final is the barometer, would you rank Gordon Kennett and Les Collins (same era) above Morton, Wilson and Carter? He also won a major World Championship qualifying round in addition to the British Final unlike all the rest...

GREAT POST and you really have a strong case "falcace" for me i suppose i sometimes get blinded by riders who did not quite do it but were class acts.Wilson, E.Boocock,Betts,Ashby,Adams,Sigalos,P.Crump all come into that category.Also you see loads more of Mort than me and at Hyde Rd was a sight to be seen he was one of a few who could beat Nielsen on merit.Mort's pass of Carter in the Northern riders Championship is one of the greatest passes i have ever seen top class a top rider TOP bloke to.

[waiheke1 4,295]

Is this some sort of trick question? Going on what they achieved:

 

1. Carter

2. Simmons

3. Louis

4. Morton

5. Wilson

It sure why you think it's a trick question. And if based purely on achievements why KC would clearly be number one. For me it's largely about what he was good enough to achieve but didn't (ie. arguably the only one good enough to be world champ, though Simmo fans might argue that he also was) rather than the titles he did win, though the back to back BLRC maximums was clearly an impressive feat.

[foamfence 2,917]

1 Carter

2 Wilson

3 Simmons

4 Morton

5 Louis

They were all respected by the top overseas riders but Carter was probably the most feared and he would ride with severe injuries which wouldn't have been allowed today. Wilson was very solid at any level. Simmons was sometimes referred to as the best rider never to have been World Champion but his cheating involvement has tainted his (and some others) image. Morton was a little battler but he was exceptionally gifted at bemoaning his lot and was mostly in the shadow of Peter Collins. Louis rode for us at Halifax, I don't know how good he'd been at Ipswich but for us he was little more than a gating tart.

[waiheke1 4,295]

Judging Louis based on his Halifax days is a bit like judging Peter Collins only on his 82-86 seasons - totally unrepresentative of the rider at his peak.

[foamfence 2,917]

Judging Louis based on his Halifax days is a bit like judging Peter Collins only on his 82-86 seasons - totally unrepresentative of the rider at his peak.

I wasn't that impressed with him at his peak either, what I meant was that he might have been a different rider at Ipswich than he was elsewhere.

[steve roberts 9,242]

I wasn't that impressed with him at his peak either, what I meant was that he might have been a different rider at Ipswich than he was elsewhere.

John Louis was a master of slowing down races and making room for his partner and he wasn't my favourite Brit at the time personally but you can't deny his team ethic.

[chunky 6,081]

I can't believe that people are simply using the BLRC to support their claims for Morton... Yes, it was a great achievement (albeit on his home track), but is that it? And Sidney, you really think that Willie's WTC max would elevate him above Mort?

 

Come on, let us look at what else he won; things that everyone seems to have forgotten (other than a vague mention in passing by falcace).

 

First was the 1978 VW/Daily Mirror GP. He won the final, and overall, against Simmons, Louis, and a host of other top names.

 

Then - and for me, THIS was the highlight of his career - there was his triumph at the 1980 Inter-Continental Final. In a meeting that was generally considered to be tougher than the World Final, Mort turned in a superb display of racing to top the list.

 

In view of this brace of victories (which everybody else seems to ignore), along with the other achievements mentioned above, I would DEFINITELY put him no lower than third in the list. Oh, and yes, I hated Carter, but I can differentiate between "ability" and "favouritism"...

 

1 - Simmons

2 - Carter

3 - Morton

4 - Louis

5 - Wilson

 

Steve

Edited September 10, 2017 by chunky

[foamfence 2,917]

John Louis was a master of slowing down races and making room for his partner and he wasn't my favourite Brit at the time personally but you can't deny his team ethic.

I didn't.