Carter, Morton,simmons,louis,wilson What Order.?

[waiheke1 4,295]

I am quite surprised that Morton is high up in alot of people's list in amongst the other four.He was a great rider but his gating was his achlilles heel but he did have a fair amount of success and his longevity was impressive.

Pleased he couldn't gate, watching at Hyde Rd would have been nowhere near as entertaining if he and PC weren't forced to swoop round the boards from the back

[Grand Central 2,654]

It is hardly surprising that the five riders we are discussing should be difficult to separate.

With the exception of Carter they had long careers as heat leaders in the BL in overlapping years.

They all had strong international records over a variety of competitions in an age when those sorts of meetings seemed quite meaningful.

And yet none of them won the top prize.

 

So it really comes down to our own judgement and that does tend to be guided by our subconscious prejudices.

And therefore opinions vary so widely.

 

Being a northern boy I saw Carter at his peak.

I don't think any of the others were as good as him at their comparative peak.

That gives him top spot for me.

 

But if we have to make longevity at the top more if a priority then then others have better claims.

 

To me Jessup was quite brilliant in 1980 I think he shades it over the other non World Champ Brits who were never quite that good at their best. But he wasn't mentioned in the OP.

 

Morton was so much better than Simmons or Louis that he has runners up spot nailed for me.

 

1 Carter

2 Morton

3 Louis

4 Simmons

5 Wilson

[OveFundinFan 4,139]

1 Carter

2 Morton

3 Simmo

4 Louis

5 Wilson

 

Mortons career was really something good, especially because he was not a brilliant gater, and he was always in the shadow of PC which psychologically may have affected him.

He was the only one of the 5 that had a long track career, riding in 5 finals plus one at reserve, and coming 3rd in one of them - no mean achievement when you consider the era it was (Germans always good plus top speedway riders in the mix as well).

 

I think Dave Jessup deserves a mention as well. 6 world finals (best 3rd) 3 world pairs (won it once) and 6 world team (1st 3 times), let down by the fact never British Champ nor BLRC. Apart fro an engine failure in 1978 in his first race, he could have been world champ that year - scored 11 from 12 after that. Think Olsen won on 13.

[chunky 6,090]

It is hardly surprising that the five riders we are discussing should be difficult to separate.

With the exception of Carter they had long careers as heat leaders in the BL in overlapping years.

They all had strong international records over a variety of competitions in an age when those sorts of meetings seemed quite meaningful.

And yet none of them won the top prize.

 

So it really comes down to our own judgement and that does tend to be guided by our subconscious prejudices.

And therefore opinions vary so widely.

 

Being a northern boy I saw Carter at his peak.

I don't think any of the others were as good as him at their comparative peak.

That gives him top spot for me.

 

But if we have to make longevity at the top more if a priority then then others have better claims.

 

To me Jessup was quite brilliant in 1980 I think he shades it over the other non World Champ Brits who were never quite that good at their best. But he wasn't mentioned in the OP.

 

Morton was so much better than Simmons or Louis that he has runners up spot nailed for me.

 

1 Carter

2 Morton

3 Louis

4 Simmons

5 Wilson

Excellent post. I agree about the longevity versus ability, which is why I placed Carter second on my list. Similar to your mention of Jessup's 1980 season, 1976 is the reason I gave Simmo the edge over Carter.

 

Again, while Jessup wasn't on Sidney's list, nor was Kennett, Betts, Ashby, etc, so I don't think it was meant to be an all-encompassing comparison, just between those five.

 

You say about meetings being more meaningful, the 70's and early 80's was an extremely difficult period for any rider, with Collins, Mauger, Olsen, Autrey, Crump, Penhall, and a host of other quality riders engaged in battle, in addition to those mentioned here. What a great era it was...

Mortons career was really something good, especially because he was not a brilliant gater, and he was always in the shadow of PC which psychologically may have affected him.

That can certainly happen. However, I think it is worth noting that this fact appears to have had more affect on those who don't rate Mort as highly as the others on the list. We have already proven his worth by achievement alone, yet he never got the recognition he deserved - and still doesn't...

 

And can you imagine how good he would have been had he been able to trap!!!

 

Steve

Edited September 12, 2017 by chunky

[waiheke1 4,295]

Simmons 1976 vs Carter 82? I'd have to say Carter 82 was better. But agree that Simmo had longevity on his side, and arguably achieved more.

Pthers have convinced me to move Mort up to 3rd, still behind those two.

And if Jessup was on the list, he'd have to be 1 oe 2 - Jessup in 80 was clearly the best rider in the world, no brainer for champ under a GP system.

[steve roberts 9,242]

1 Carter

2 Morton

3 Simmo

4 Louis

5 Wilson

 

Mortons career was really something good, especially because he was not a brilliant gater, and he was always in the shadow of PC which psychologically may have affected him.

He was the only one of the 5 that had a long track career, riding in 5 finals plus one at reserve, and coming 3rd in one of them - no mean achievement when you consider the era it was (Germans always good plus top speedway riders in the mix as well).

 

I think Dave Jessup deserves a mention as well. 6 world finals (best 3rd) 3 world pairs (won it once) and 6 world team (1st 3 times), let down by the fact never British Champ nor BLRC. Apart fro an engine failure in 1978 in his first race, he could have been world champ that year - scored 11 from 12 after that. Think Olsen won on 13.

...always his achilles heel! Happened again during the 1981 World Final. Simmo has been quoted as saying that Jessup cut corners on his bike preparation and paid the cost.

[Grand Central 2,654]

Simmons 1976 vs Carter 82? I'd have to say Carter 82 was better. But agree that Simmo had longevity on his side, and arguably achieved more.

Pthers have convinced me to move Mort up to 3rd, still behind those two.

And if Jessup was on the list, he'd have to be 1 oe 2 - Jessup in 80 was clearly the best rider in the world, no brainer for champ under a GP system.

 

I am still to be convinced on just how good Simmons was in 1976.

He won the Internationale and all British rounds of the World Championship; and the Pairs with John Louis.

And of course second in Katowice ... because Ivan had his ef !!

 

But otherwise, was it that special, surely quite a few others had a better 76 than him ... Olsen, PC, Mauger even Louis Crump and Jessup had better league seasons that him.

 

And to even compete with KC in 1982 or DJ in 1980? that was way below them?

They were head and shoulders above just about everyone in those years.

Simmons was never close to that.

 

Or am I wrong ?

I am open to persuasion.

Edited September 12, 2017 by Grand Central

[waiheke1 4,295]

Dj was indisputably the best rider in the world in 80.

KC was indisputably one of the two best riders in the world in 82.

Simmo was not the best rider in the world in 76. He was one of a group of riders who could have made the podium under a gp system. But likely would have finished behind Olsen and mauger imo.

So I don't think I'm persuading you GC, I agree with you.

[bruno 1,790]

Agree,Simmo never did it for me always preferred pc mort, Jessup Louis lee Wilson etc. No idea why

[Sidney the robin 4,735]

You keep saying you are surprised by Morton being rated highly by others, but when you look at his achievements, you shouldn't be. The fact that he achieved more than others generally rated above him is an indication of that.

Thing is, you also mention his longevity in the sport, but he really wasn't around that long. He retired at 34 before having that one season with Sheffield. Simmons, Jessup, Kennett etc were all around a lot longer.

Steve

But Morton was a star from say aged 19/20 to say 34 along time most of it at a very high level indeed, quality longevity i meant.Nearly 15 years at a high level is an achievement in itself he held his high level of form for quite a period not alot of people do that.

Jessup was never a favourite of mine but he would be in a list with Lee,Collins, ect) Carter was also only in this list because his career was cut short.Jessup is a strange one i never enjoyed watching him much he was a quiet personality but you have to say he was a great rider and in 1980 he had a great year.But i dont agree he would of won a GP series his team around him and aquipment was questionable in my opinion not sure on that side of things he would of.had the endurance to win a series.

Edited September 12, 2017 by Sidney the robin

[The White Knight 9,039]

But Morton was a star from say aged 19/20 to say 34 along time most of it at a very high level indeed, quality longevity i meant.Nearly 15 years at a high level is an achievement in itself he held his high level of form for quite a period not alot of people do that.

Mort was a great Rider. Much better than I thought after reading the Stats on here. I hae changed my mind on my top five.

 

My original choice was:

 

1 - Simmo

2 - Louis

3 - Morton

4 - Wilson

5 - Carter

 

I will amend that to:

 

1 - Simmo

2 - Morton

3 - Louis

4 - Wilson

5 - Carter

[fatface 2,552]

Have to admit I'm struggling to understand that!

Apologies. I fecked that one up somewhat. Didn't know how to paste a table. I've had another crack below:

 

WF WTC WP BLRC BF WCQ WFA CAPS

______________________________________________________________________

CARTER S x 2 G x 1 G x 2 G x 2 S x 4 3 ?

S x 2 S x 1

B x 1

______________________________________________________________________

LOUIS B x1 G x 3 G x 1 G x 1 G x 1 S x 1 4 ?

B x 2

______________________________________________________________________

MORTON G x 1 G x 1 G x 1 G x 1 G x 1 7 128

S x 3 S x 2 S x 1 S x 1

B x 1 B x 1 B x 1 B x 1

______________________________________________________________________

SIMMO S x 1 G x 4 G x 3 G x 1 3 80

S x 1 S x 1 B x 3

______________________________________________________________________

WILSON G x 4 G x 1 S x 1 G x 1 S x 2 4 ?

S x 1 S x 1 B x 1

B x 1

 

 

G - Gold

S - Silver

B - Bronze

WF – World Finals

WTC – World Team Cup

WP – World Pairs

BLRC – British League Riders Championship

BF – British Finals

WCQ – Major World Championship Qualifying Rounds, eg. Intercontinental, European, Overseas, British-Nordic, Commonwealth

WFA – World Final appearances

CAPS – International caps

 

 

To me, this shows Simmo as the top man in terms of achievements in the big three of World Individual, Pairs and Team. But Morton is the only one to win gold in all the major competitions outside of the World Individual. TBH, I'm struggling to think of another non-World Champion who could boast this. Wilson has an outstanding World Cup record. Louis is the only one to have been on the podium in every major event and Carter has the best BLRC and British Final record.

 

All makes very interesting reading. Morton had the longest top level career of the lot. But if you pinned me in the corner and asked me who was the best of this lot at their very best, I'd probably go for Kenny Carter.

Edited September 12, 2017 by falcace

[Grand Central 2,654]

 

I will amend that to:

 

1 - Simmo

2 - Morton

3 - Louis

4 - Wilson

5 - Carter

 

I know that we all have different opinions.

But this is more different than most.

 

I cannot BEGIN to work out how you have come to that ranking

Edited September 12, 2017 by Grand Central

[chunky 6,090]

 

I know that we all have different opinions.

But this is more different than most.

 

I cannot BEGIN to work out how you have come to that ranking

Because he has freely admitted that it is not based on ability and achievement - which is what this whole thread is about - but on personal hatred. Had Bruce Penhall been on that list, he would be rated even worse. Sad but true...

 

Steve

Edited September 12, 2017 by chunky

[The White Knight 9,039]

Because he has freely admitted that it is not based on ability and achievement - which is what this whole thread is about - but on personal hatred. Had Bruce Penhall been on that list, he would be rated even worse. Sad but true...

 

Steve

Carter was never a Team man. That is why I have rated him so low.

 

I don't hate him either Chunky and I never said I did. I said I didn't like him - there is a rather big difference there don't you think?

 

I like Speedway Riders who are basically Team men - the others all qualify for that - Carter doesn't. Ergo he is at the bottom of my List and will stay there.