Trees 2,814 Posted September 15, 2017 (edited) The playoffs are great if the team that tops the league wins..... If we celebrated the league win and then had play offs it would take something away from them BUT it would be fair for the league toppers, they deserve a trophy for coming top too imo. Edited September 15, 2017 by Trees 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
montie 1,273 Posted September 15, 2017 IN a word yes we do need them i see folks point about top of the league should be champions etc but there is no doubt the season is kept alive by having the chase for the play offs which is a good thing Also to finish in the top 4 can be expensive for the club,which ever league they are in so the chance to get some bumper crowds and claw a few quid back is handy Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vincent Blachshadow 2,936 Posted September 15, 2017 (edited) That is not how life or sport works .you do well you get the rewards or you might as well not even ride for any points or have match points .maybe in the Wimbledon they should give the same prize money to the players who got knocked out in the first round to the player who wins the event . I fail to see the relevance of how prize money is apportioned in an individual knock-out competition to anything in speedway, but if you're talking prize money for league finishing position then certainly, in football's Championship, the team finishing third gets more than the team finishing fourth, who get more than the team finishing fifth, who get more than the team finishing 6th, regardless of who eventually wins promotion through the play-offs. So 'you do well you get the rewards' works equally well without play-offs - that's what talent money is for. Edited September 15, 2017 by Vincent Blackshadow Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BWitcher 12,453 Posted September 15, 2017 Sadly its probably like Sweden where they brought it in and the negative effect was immediate. Fred does like to continually trot out this line, which of course is utterly false. Here’s the data for the Elitserien: av attendance 1994 1009 1995 1135 1996 1089 1997 1137 1998 1172 1999 1796 Play-offs introduced av attendance excluding play-offs 2000 2261 2001 2781 2002 2678 2003 2847 2004 2864 2005 3029 2006 2602 2007 2742 Play-off final attendances 2000 12242 & 7464 2001 8639 & 9080 2002 5940 & 8035 2003 5468 & 8426 2004 5709 & 7526 2005 8703 & 7264 2006 7901 & 5899 2007 9398 & 8564 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
orion 7,615 Posted September 15, 2017 I fail to see the relevance of how prize money is apportioned in an individual knock-out competition to anything in speedway, but if you're talking prize money for league finishing position then certainly, in football's Championship, the team finishing third gets more than the team finishing fourth, who get more than the team finishing fifth, who get more than the team finishing 6th, regardless of who eventually wins promotion through the play-offs. So 'you do well you get the rewards' works equally well without play-offs - that's what talent money is for. ? so seeing that the league can't even get a sponsor who would pay this prize money in speedway for coming 5th 6th and 7th Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bellevueace 913 Posted September 15, 2017 If you were not going to finish top, they would still have been meaningless without the play-offs. However, given how close the top three were this year I don't buy that you weren't going to finish top and this year is an exception in that if there weren't any playoffs the race for the title would have been fantastic. Things would I am sure have played out differently too. Because if your not going to finish top that's out of reach but you have qualified for a play off place the rest of the matches are academic, you are right they would still be meaningless without the play offs too but the play offs were supposed to eradicate meaningless meetings, which they never will for the struggling clubs ie Leicester who were never in contention. With only 8 clubs half the league qualify, if we had say an 18 team league like we used to have half the teams would be riding the latter half of the season with nothing to ride for anyway. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
orion 7,615 Posted September 15, 2017 Because if your not going to finish top that's out of reach but you have qualified for a play off place the rest of the matches are academic, you are right they would still be meaningless without the play offs too but the play offs were supposed to eradicate meaningless meetings, which they never will for the struggling clubs ie Leicester who were never in contention. With only 8 clubs half the league qualify, if we had say an 18 team league like we used to have half the teams would be riding the latter half of the season with nothing to ride for anyway. Who said the play offs were going to eradicate meaningless matches ? no matter what sport that is never going to happen ..who said that ? what they do is make more matches not meaningless and keep more clubs seasons alive as well as giving the clubs who have done well a chance of a decent crowd at the end of season and a much needed pay out Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
moxey63 1,785 Posted September 15, 2017 The Play-Offs have merely replaced the importance of the Knock-Out Cup. I doubt very much that attendances actually increase for a table match featuring two Play-Off candidates any differently than comparing figures when two title-challengers met before the pre-Play-Off times. On the other hand, clubs without a chance of making the Play-Off cut probably have attendances comparable back in the day to also-rans in a proper league system, if you go on percentages. But now, revenue must be lost as practically a month is wiped from the season in October, as all other team competitions seems meaningless. From a personal view, I remember the feeling in 2005 when Belle Vue played Coventry in the PO FInal. The next week was the KO Cup Final, an anti-climatic feeling, after the Lord Mayor's show... and that, despite Aces winning the first KO Cup since 1975 (that's 30 years)! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BWitcher 12,453 Posted September 15, 2017 No Flange, my lack of ability is not astonishing. Unfortunately you are trying to be clever without the required understanding of the principles. You are trying to base your example on the 'theory' that the crowds in Sweden would have continued to improve at the rate they did from 1998-1999. Even someone with no mathematical pedigree would understand that is a nonsensical theory otherwise crowds would soon reach ridiculous figures that stadiums couldn't hold. In addition, when conducting any mathematical analysis, anomalies are generally discounted. In this case we have five years of crowd figures pre-playoffs with crowds ranging from 1009-1172. Then one year at 1796. The 1796 is clearly not representative of the usual attendance pre-playoffs.The reality is simple. Average crowd in the six years prior to the play-offs: 1223 Average crowd in the eight years after play-offs were introduced: 2725.5 Reality is crowds after the playoffs were more than double those prior. It is absolutely absurd to suggest the playoffs had an immediate negative impact on crowds in Sweden. That is of course without considering the bumper attendances for the finals. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BWitcher 12,453 Posted September 15, 2017 Unbelievable! The first point is the only one that makes sense except the crowds were only around 2000. While Swedish stadiums may only hold a few thousand and could max out I doubt it, but at least you've taken on board the pre qualifier and cup format increases. I've been through the 'anomalies' with you before and accepted that they can be ignored but just like last time you ignored the 'anomalies' before the doh! moment but included all the 'anomalies' in your average? It gets worse! You really don't understand this bit do you? 2,4,6,8,10, doh!,11,12,13,14,15, you are actually saying the bit after the doh! moment is better because the average is higher, you even did the sums to prove it!!!! This statement alone is so stupid that anything else you have to say cannot be taken seriously can it? The 'bumper crowds' for the finals make a tiny impact on the overall average attendance for the full season and just doesn't come close to making up for the losses due the the qualifier and cup format. Get someone who understands simple arithmetic to explain it because you haven't got a scooby. Ok, as per your insistence we will remove the 'anomaly' figure of 1796. That now gives us an average attendance of 1108 pre playoffs. We already know the average attendance after they were introduced was 2725. To keep it simple we will assume each person attending pays £10. So pre play offs clubs were bringing in £11,080 per match After play offs introduced clubs were bringing in £27,250 per match. Interesting 'losses'. Given the standard eight team Swedish league, 7 home matches, clubs brought in on average £113,190 more per season after playoffs were brought in... plus the £50,000-£100,000 for two of the teams in the play off final which you say makes a tiny impact... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The White Knight 9,039 Posted September 15, 2017 Ok, as per your insistence we will remove the 'anomaly' figure of 1796. That now gives us an average attendance of 1108 pre playoffs. We already know the average attendance after they were introduced was 2725. To keep it simple we will assume each person attending pays £10. So pre play offs clubs were bringing in £11,080 per match After play offs introduced clubs were bringing in £27,250 per match. Interesting 'losses'. Given the standard eight team Swedish league, 7 home matches, clubs brought in on average £113,190 more per season after playoffs were brought in... plus the £50,000-£100,000 for two of the teams in the play off final which you say makes a tiny impact... I'm enjoying this......................... Eagerly awaiting the next Episode. Over to you Fred.................................. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BWitcher 12,453 Posted September 15, 2017 I'm enjoying this......................... Eagerly awaiting the next Episode. Over to you Fred.................................. He'll just keep posing nonsense for an eternity WK. No need for me to post anymore. The figures are plain for all to see. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The White Knight 9,039 Posted September 15, 2017 He'll just keep posing nonsense for an eternity WK. No need for me to post anymore. The figures are plain for all to see. DAMN!!! 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
waiheke1 4,295 Posted September 15, 2017 (edited) It's patently obvious that the figures in Sweden show that the play offs have seen a increase in attendances. So Flange either genuinely has no understanding of basic maths or economics, or is trolling again. I guess if he's on this thread at least it might stop his trolling on the Wolves threads. Though his anti play off rhetoric is just as tedious as his repeated comments about the "horror track"though less obnoxious than his repeated personal attacks on Brum. Edited September 15, 2017 by waihekeaces1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Barney Rabbit 727 Posted September 15, 2017 1997 1137 1998 1172 1999 1796 Play-offs introduced av attendance excluding play-offs 2000 2261 2001 2781 I notice crowds went up by 65% the season prior to the introduction of the play-offs. How can we know that the improvement would not have carried on had the play-offs not been introduced. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
