Just A Thought...

[chunky 6,090]

Yeah and not Nicki who won 3 titles finished second once and third 3 times!!!!

You beat me to it... As much as I don't like the guy, it is difficult to argue with the eighth best record of all-time. Not like it's a one-off, is it?

 

Who told you that? I mean, I'd say the overall quality has dipped, but it's about opinions.

Again, it's all conjecture. I agree with Nygren when he says he doesn't feel the riders have the same skills as those in previous eras, due to the changes in machinery and track surfaces, but as has been said before, the top riders would have stood out in any era.

 

Steve

Edited October 31, 2017 by chunky

[moxey63 1,785]

You beat me to it... As much as I don't like the guy, it is difficult to argue with the eighth best record of all-time. Not like it's a one-off, is it?

Again, it's all conjecture. I agree with Nygren when he says he doesn't feel the riders have the same skills as those in previous eras, due to the changes in machinery and track surfaces, but as has been said before, the top riders would have stood out in any era.

 

Steve

 

If the competition is fiercer these days, then I bet the likes of Holder, Hancock and Pedersen, each with better days behinds them will have to be invited back as Wild Cards to give the GP some fluffing up. There is no way that a near 50 year-old should still be candidate for the world title. It isn't Ice Racing you know.

[chunky 6,090]

 

If the competition is fiercer these days, then I bet the likes of Holder, Hancock and Pedersen, each with better days behinds them will have to be invited back as Wild Cards to give the GP some fluffing up. There is no way that a near 50 year-old should still be candidate for the world title. It isn't Ice Racing you know.

I cannot argue that point, but again, that could well be a reflection of the way the sport itself has changed, rather than it being a simple drop in the quality of the competition. If it were two-valves on cinder tracks, I don't think Greg would be in contention, but modern day speedway is more akin to road-racing than dirt-track racing. Still, it is all conjecture...

 

Steve

[Sidney the robin 4,735]

Yet the reality is, they are competing in a much tougher era with far more professional riders from top to bottom.

Can you name any others that would get into a all time top 15.? when you narrow it down the top 10/15 of all time they are the real cream.

[iris123 20,969]

Can you name any others that would get into a all time top 15.? when you narrow it down the top 10/15 of all time they are the real cream.

Of course.As i pointed out Nicki won 3 titles against those you named.He must rate better than Gollob and most probably behind Crump.But he isn't that far behind Crump not to be mentioned at all.Then we have Greg,who has more titles than both Crump and Nicki......so that is 2 Just look at the facts rather than judge with prejudice because you don't like a rider

[Aces51 2,778]

The situation in the Craven, Fundin, Briggs, Moore and Knutsson era was that you had 5 riders who were a step above the rest to the extent that they introduced handicap racing into the league to try to give the rest more chance. Those 5 riders dominated the sport and I can't think of any prior since where as many as 5 riders have shown such dominance over the rest. They were all consistent and shared the World Championship between them until Craven's untimely death. It's also worth remembering that Peter was only 29 when he died and would probably have added to his two World titles.

[iris123 20,969]

The situation in the Craven, Fundin, Briggs, Moore and Knutsson era was that you had 5 riders who were a step above the rest to the extent that they introduced handicap racing into the league to try to give the rest more chance. Those 5 riders dominated the sport and I can't think of any prior since where as many as 5 riders have shown such dominance over the rest. They were all consistent and shared the World Championship between them until Craven's untimely death. It's also worth remembering that Peter was only 29 when he died and would probably have added to his two World titles.

Trouble is with the scenario imo is...

 

1.The vast majority of world finals in that era were held at the same track,so quite probably the riders who rode well at that track would always tend to finish up at the top.

 

2.To help prove the problem,the one season Peter Craven rode at a world final in another country he finished a poor 10th!!!!

 

In the modern era it is impossible for track specialists to win world titles because we have 11 or 12 rounds

[BWitcher 12,453]

 

Who told you that? I mean, I'd say the overall quality has dipped, but it's about opinions. Hancock won his first title in the mid-90s when at his peak. Took him almost 20 years to win his second. Was that because the opposition was better or that the real top liners had left the stage? Jason Doyle was a mere second string, a second division rider even not that long ago. He isn't a youngster, and yet with a bit of luck could be now a two-time world champion. Because the opposition are a higher level.

 

I don't need to be told it, it's blatently obvious.

 

Riders are fitter and more professional from the very top all the way down.

 

You don't have riders reaching World Finals who turn up with a bike strapped to the back of the car.

 

The leagues were generally a poor standard in the past, period. You could turn up, ride a bike for the first time and be in a team within a few weeks. All documented in Backtrack interviews. Chances of that happening now? Zero.

[moxey63 1,785]

 

I don't need to be told it, it's blatently obvious.

 

Riders are fitter and more professional from the very top all the way down.

 

You don't have riders reaching World Finals who turn up with a bike strapped to the back of the car.

 

The leagues were generally a poor standard in the past, period. You could turn up, ride a bike for the first time and be in a team within a few weeks. All documented in Backtrack interviews. Chances of that happening now? Zero.

 

Not talking about world finals. Talking about 10 years ago. Even five years ago. Are you saying Tony Rickardsson, Jason Crump or Hans Nielsen used to borrow string so they could tie their bikes to an Austin A40? I mentioned Leigh Adams, who didn't ride in the 70s, but was a regular top liner in the GPs a decade ago. If he was about now, would he be more successful than back then, when it took him ages upon ages to win his first GP?

 

The standard of riders is so poor nowadays.

 

Just my view.

[Sidney the robin 4,735]

Of course.As i pointed out Nicki won 3 titles against those you named.He must rate better than Gollob and most probably behind Crump.But he isn't that far behind Crump not to be mentioned at all.Then we have Greg,who has more titles than both Crump and Nicki......so that is 2 Just look at the facts rather than judge with prejudice because you don't like a rider

 

When you have a top 15 you cannot pick everybody can you ? something has to give.Pedersen has had a great career but Gollob for me was a better rider he could pull off moves on the track that Nicki could only dream of doing.When judging a rider i dont just go on how many WC they had won Pedersen won as many titles as Olsen yet for me was a level below him.Yes i go to speedway now enjoy it mostly is it Better NO is it FASTER of course it is that is the real difference now it is faster.

[Aces51 2,778]

Trouble is with the scenario imo is...

 

1.The vast majority of world finals in that era were held at the same track,so quite probably the riders who rode well at that track would always tend to finish up at the top.

 

2.To help prove the problem,the one season Peter Craven rode at a world final in another country he finished a poor 10th!!!!

 

In the modern era it is impossible for track specialists to win world titles because we have 11 or 12 rounds

It is true that during most of that time the World Finals were all at Wembley but they had to qualify for the final going through the various qualifying rounds. Those 5 riders also showed they were head and shoulders above the rest by their consistently good performances on all of the British tracks. At that time the best riders in the world rode here and not in the foreign leagues, other than Fundin and Knutsson who obviously also rode in Sweden. To suggest they only won their titles because they were Wembley track specialists ignores their superiority throughout the season.

[orion 7,615]

When you have a top 15 you cannot pick everybody can you ? something has to give.Pedersen has had a great career but Gollob for me was a better rider he could pull off moves on the track that Nicki could only dream of doing.When judging a rider i dont just go on how many WC they had won Pedersen won as many titles as Olsen yet for me was a level below him.Yes i go to speedway now enjoy it mostly is it Better NO is it FASTER of course it is that is the real difference now it is faster.

Of course you go on how many World titles they won ...Pedersen was Better than Gollob end of story the facts tell you that ...Nicki never had to do all thou's moves because he was better from the gate

[iris123 20,969]

It is true that during most of that time the World Finals were all at Wembley but they had to qualify for the final going through the various qualifying rounds. Those 5 riders also showed they were head and shoulders above the rest by their consistently good performances on all of the British tracks. At that time the best riders in the world rode here and not in the foreign leagues, other than Fundin and Knutsson who obviously also rode in Sweden. To suggest they only won their titles because they were Wembley track specialists ignores their superiority throughout the season.

But most of the time they never even for a world title have to ride in one foreign country!!!! Not the 'British' riders i.e Brits,NZ and Oz riders.They rode a couple of meetings on tracks they rode year in year out and as we get into the 50s the number of tracks in the top league were few anyway.It might have been a far different story if they actually had to ride in meetings around Europe.maybe Plechanov would have won a title or two?....

 

Take 1959 for instance and Ove Fundin had to ride in one meeting(Sweden) before the world final.Similar things happened in other years or sometime a rider was directly seeded to the final.Briggo?

Edited October 31, 2017 by iris123

[BWitcher 12,453]

 

Not talking about world finals. Talking about 10 years ago. Even five years ago. Are you saying Tony Rickardsson, Jason Crump or Hans Nielsen used to borrow string so they could tie their bikes to an Austin A40? I mentioned Leigh Adams, who didn't ride in the 70s, but was a regular top liner in the GPs a decade ago. If he was about now, would he be more successful than back then, when it took him ages upon ages to win his first GP?

 

The standard of riders is so poor nowadays.

 

Just my view.

 

No, what you are trying to say is the standard of the British League is so poor nowadays.

 

The standard of the top league in Poland has never been better..

When you have a top 15 you cannot pick everybody can you ? something has to give.Pedersen has had a great career but Gollob for me was a better rider he could pull off moves on the track that Nicki could only dream of doing.When judging a rider i dont just go on how many WC they had won Pedersen won as many titles as Olsen yet for me was a level below him.Yes i go to speedway now enjoy it mostly is it Better NO is it FASTER of course it is that is the real difference now it is faster.

 

So what if Gollob pulled of moves. Aim of the game is to win races, which Nicki across the world was better at. Gollob was great in Poland and on tracks that suited. Nicki was better all round.

[E I Addio 15,843]

I think you have to throw into the mix the fact that as long as riders stay fit these days they have much longer careers because the financial incentive is far higher. In the past most riders had to think in terms of setting up alternative forms of income and often retired to concentrate on business. If Greg had been earning £1 start and £1 a point, even if increased with inflation he would likely have retired long before his third World Title. Earnings of several hundred thousand pounds a year are a massive incentive to keep riding.

 

The other thing is the technical aspect these days. It is known that Briggo's bikes in particular weren't up to much mechancally and he relied on skill and strength to get by but the early 70's when tuners were starting to play a greater part Briggo was not quite the same, plus of course he had the distraction of outside business interests by then.

 

Bottom line is you can't compare. You can only judge riders by the era they ride in each generation learns from the one before.

Edited October 31, 2017 by E I Addio