Just A Thought...

[steve roberts 9,242]

Maybe the riders take a wider line around the track these days - so top speeds are higher, but riders are having to travel further.

Good point...when I first attended speedway white line riding was common place but as time moved on riders began to adopt a different technique due to differing styles and/or bike development.

[Aces51 2,778]

Numerous interviews in Backtrack of it happening, all from the 70's.

The last time you and I discussed this issue you were going to have a look at your magazines, I think you said when you were next in the UK and come up with some names. It would be interesting to have examples and the level of the teams involved.

[steve roberts 9,242]

The last time you and I discussed this issue you were going to have a look at your magazines, I think you said when you were next in the UK and come up with some names. It would be interesting to have examples and the level of the teams involved.

I don't recall it being common practice and don't remember specific examples at Oxford (other than the example I earlier gave) during 1972 -75, Swindon (perhaps Sid could confirm?) White City 1976 - 78 and Eastbourne (both NL and BL eras) during the seventies.

 

It obviously must have happened on occasion as the old British League Division Two/National League required fresh new developing talent as was the remit within the lower league back then. Of course that's no longer the case, as has been the case for many years now, what with the shift in emphasise utilising foreign riders which has obviously squeezed out potential home base talent.

 

It would make for an interesting survey?

Edited November 1, 2017 by steve roberts

[moxey63 1,785]

 

No, what you are trying to say is the standard of the British League is so poor nowadays.

 

 

 

Er, ok, if you say so. Thought I meant the standard of world speedway... but I may be wrong. Let me just check.

[BWitcher 12,453]

 

Er, ok, if you say so. Thought I meant the standard of world speedway... but I may be wrong. Let me just check.

 

You are wrong, you just don't know what you are wrong about.

 

The standard of World speedway is far higher now that it ever was, mainly due to the Poles. Not necessarily the very top riders, but the depth and professionalism of all the others.

Edited November 1, 2017 by BWitcher

[Sidney the robin 4,735]

...that may have been true during the early sixties with the formation of the Provincial League and the later old Second Division (1968) when there was a shortage of riders to fill the teams and the second tier of racing was basically a development league before the criteria began to change during the middle seventies.

 

However during my formative "Rebel' years (1972 - 75) I can only recall one rider who fitted that criteria and that was Julian Wigg (Simon's brother) who first appeared in second halves (1972) riding his grass track bike and late in the season putting in an appearance for the team at, if I remember correctly, Sheffield.

How many riders made a career for themseves after starting out in old second halves? some of those were novices.At Swindon they used to have a junior jaunt race that produced a few riders over the years people forget Ashby and Kilby were juniors they started from the bottom.For me from 1970 to 86 that was a very strong period the NL was also a decent product as well and the meetings i saw were very good indeed.Young riders going in with the likes of the quality of the Owen Bros), Jackson, Hunter,Etheridge,Woods,Brown,Mcdermott,Shields,R.Hunter (ect) was a tough ask.This myth of riders turning up with 1 bike on the back of the car with a fag in there mouth gives the wrong impression sure people are generally fitter now but i dont think they are better.And today i have just looked at the 2018 series line up not inspiring in my opinion ( Moxey may have a point???) again showing there is still a closed shop syndrome in that event

I recall exceptional sixteen year old talents...Chris Morton, Michael Lee & Kenny Carter to name three...but I don't recall that it was as common a practice back then...certainly not in the upper league although the lower league's criteria was somewhat different as quoted in a previous post having personally closely followed Eastbourne & Peterborough whose riders often took part in second halves at Cowley due to the promotional tie up during that period.

 

Certain promotions (Belle Vue & Ellesmere Port come easily to mind) ran dedicated Training Schools in an attempt to speed up development and give aspiring riders an opportunity to ride. Eastbourne (Thru' Arthur Nutley) would scour the Kent Grasstrack scene and give second half opportunities to promising talent.

 

I shall re-read some of the back numbers of said magazine as well as the 'Classic' magazine to re-jog the memory cells as it was a period that I was very familiar with having attended many tracks during that era.

Doncaster,Screen,Loram,Tatum,all were thrown in at the deep end in a really tough BL league i cant remember to many wobblers riding then.🤓 Edited November 1, 2017 by Sidney the robin

[foamfence 2,917]

How many riders made a career for themseves after starting out in old second halves? some of those were novices.At Swindon they used to have a junior jaunt race that produced a few riders over the years people forget Ashby and Kilby were juniors they started from the bottom.For me from 1970 to 86 that was a very strong period the NL was also a decent product as well and the meetings i saw were very good indeed.Young riders going in with the likes of the quality of the Owen Bros), Jackson, Hunter,Etheridge,Woods,Brown,Mcdermott,Shields,R.Hunter (ect) was a tough ask.This myth of riders turning up with 1 bike on the back of the car with a fag in there mouth gives the wrong impression sure people are generally fitter now but i dont think they are better.And today i have just looked at the 2018 series line up not inspiring in my opinion ( Moxey may have a point???) again showing there is still a closed shop syndrome in that event

It's MONSTERous.

[moxey63 1,785]

 

You are wrong, you just don't know what you are wrong about.

 

The standard of World speedway is far higher now that it ever was, mainly due to the Poles. Not necessarily the very top riders, but the depth and professionalism of all the others.

 

So... er... I was talking about the top riders.... I did... er.... mention Crump, Rickardsson and Nielsen compared to today's top riders of Tai Woffinden and Glenn (sorry, Jason) Doyle.

 

When I talk about lower down rider, I'll ask for your advice.

 

Thank you... and good day.

Edited November 1, 2017 by moxey63

[steve roberts 9,242]

How many riders made a career for themseves after starting out in old second halves? some of those were novices.At Swindon they used to have a junior jaunt race that produced a few riders over the years people forget Ashby and Kilby were juniors they started from the bottom.For me from 1970 to 86 that was a very strong period the NL was also a decent product as well and the meetings i saw were very good indeed.Young riders going in with the likes of the quality of the Owen Bros), Jackson, Hunter,Etheridge,Woods,Brown,Mcdermott,Shields,R.Hunter (ect) was a tough ask.This myth of riders turning up with 1 bike on the back of the car with a fag in there mouth gives the wrong impression sure people are generally fitter now but i dont think they are better.And today i have just looked at the 2018 series line up not inspiring in my opinion ( Moxey may have a point???) again showing there is still a closed shop syndrome in that event

Doncaster,Screen,Loram,Tatum,all were thrown in at the deep end in a really tough BL league i cant remember to many wobblers riding then.

Of course Doncaster, Screen, Loram and Tatum were all accomplished motor cyclists when they turned their hand to speedway but one had to admire them in forfeiting the traditional route and joining the big boys!

 

I did some checking on the 'Mad Wellie' and although he appeared for Oxford (NL) and Swindon (BL) in 1977 he had in fact commenced riding down at Weymouth in 1973 but turned to grass track before taking up the sport again in 1976 during second halves at Swindon.

 

Pip Lamb made his debut for Oxford during May 1976 after having trials at the Pete Jarman Training School (to which I attended) at Cowley during the previous Winter but he was another accomplished grass track exponent before turning his hand to speedway.

 

By the way Sid...thoroughly enjoyed the Bob Kilby book!

Edited November 1, 2017 by steve roberts

[iris123 20,922]

There were one or two under age riders back in the 60s or 70s i think.They couldn't have had much experience before riding for a team

 

Also could we use Knutson to point out the poor quality of riders back in those days?I mean he got his first team place in 1957 and in 1959 just missed out on a world final spot by the skin of his teeth.Is that likely to happen now?Think even wonder kids like Emil,Darcy and some of the recent Polish riders have taken far longer because of the quality

It was actually Briggo that first took training seriously , from quite early in his career, Ivan follwed.

Briggo said that fitness didn't make him any better, but kept him at the top longer. Of course, today fitness is more of an exact science than it was in the fifties, sixties and seventies, as is diet.

You are right about smoking and drinking though. I have just been reading the Kelly Moran biography and in the early days there was friction with his manager because he was spending too much time hanging out with Chris Pusey, another one who was fond of the grog and lived life in the fast lane, which he could cope with when young but by the time he hooked up with Kelly his lifestyle was catching up with him a dragging his career downhill. Then again, there was Kelly Moran himself, what heights might he have reached with a more responsible life style ? Plenty more like that.

I'll have to take your word about Briggo.Tbh he didn't seem, looking at him, to be someone who took fitness too seriously.And i know from a couple of my family who would hang around Plough Lane watching Ronnie and Briggo training,that they often had a break in between sessions to go down the pub and then came back and rode around in their hob nail boots and shorts.

 

Phil Rising might know better?

Edited November 1, 2017 by iris123

[steve roberts 9,242]

There were one or two under age riders back in the 60s or 70s i think.They couldn't have had much experience before riding for a team

 

Also could we use Knutson to point out the poor quality of riders back in those days?I mean he got his first team place in 1957 and in 1959 just missed out on a world final spot by the skin of his teeth.Is that likely to happen now?Think even wonder kids like Emil,Darcy and some of the recent Polish riders have taken far longer because of the quality

I'll have to take your word about Briggo.Tbh he didn't seem, looking at him, to be someone who took fitness too seriously.And i know from a couple of my family who would hang around Plough Lane watching Ronnie and Briggo training,that they often had a break in between sessions to go down the pub and then came back and rode around in their hob nail boots and shorts.

 

Phil Rising might know better?

Trevor Charley comes to mind (no idea what happened to him?) but I guess one of the higher profile under-aged riders was Neil Evitts...before he got found out.

 

Remember watching Colin Richardson and Michael Lee as fifteen year olds riding in exhibition races at Cowley and of course school boy grass tracking gave youngsters an early induction into riding motor bikes before progressing to the rigours of speedway. I don't subscribe to the view that it was common for riders during the seventies to turn up with no experience and within weeks progressing to a team slot...if it happened it was a rare occurrence.

 

By the way I have a DVD of Briggo jogging dressed in a track suit...not sure if it was for the benefit of the camera but I do recall reading that he had to exercise to keep his weight down to a reasonable level.

Edited November 1, 2017 by steve roberts

[chunky 6,081]

Just reverting back to the Pedersen vs Gollob comparison for a second...

 

In DIRECT GP competition (taking the thirteen years when both were full-time), it does make interesting reading.

 

They both rode in 131 GP's, with Pedersen scoring 1559 points, and Gollob 1510 (a massive difference of 0.37 points per GP).

 

Pedersen had 3 world titles, and a silver to Gollob's 1 win, a silver and two bronzes. Gollob's lowest finish was 9th, while Pedersen finished lower than that on four occasions.

 

Taking into account individual GP's, Gollob won 44 medals (17 gold, 11 silver, 16 bronze) to Pedersen's 38 (13 gold, 12 silver, 13 bronze).

 

So, Pedersen may have won more world titles, but Gollob appears to be slightly better consistency-wise.

 

Even taking into account their GP performances outside of the head-to-head, there is little to separate them; Gollob had a silver and two bronzes to Pedersen's brace of bronzes.

 

So, virtually nothing to choose between the pair, and I think that gives me enough of a case to consider Gollob the better of the two.

 

Steve

[Paulco 7,070]

Trevor Charley comes to mind (no idea what happened to him?) but I guess one of the higher profile under-aged riders was Neil Evitts...before he got found out.

 

Remember watching Colin Richardson and Michael Lee as fifteen year olds riding in exhibition races at Cowley and of course school boy grass tracking gave youngsters an early induction into riding motor bikes before progressing to the rigours of speedway. I don't go along with the idea that it was common for riders during the seventies to turn up with no experience and within weeks progressing to a team slot...if it happened it was a rare occurrence.

 

By the way I have a DVD of Briggo jogging dressed in a track suit...not sure if it was for the benefit of the camera but I do recall reading that he had to exercise to keep his weight down to a reasonable level.

Mitch Shirra was another one , 15 when he rode in division 2 for Coatbridge

[iris123 20,922]

Mitch Shirra was another one , 15 when he rode in division 2 for Coatbridge

Trevor Charley(Vincent) and Mitch were a couple i was thinking of.

[chunky 6,081]

Trevor Charley(Vincent) and Mitch were a couple i was thinking of.

We actually covered this a few years ago on here! Neil Evitts appeared a few times for Stoke in 1980 while he was only 15, and Robbie McGregor rode a couple for Glasgow when he was 14...

 

Steve