Just A Thought...

[steve roberts 9,242]

Mitch Shirra was another one , 15 when he rode in division 2 for Coatbridge

Forgot Mitch Shirra!

[Sidney the robin 4,735]

Of course Doncaster, Screen, Loram and Tatum were all accomplished motor cyclists when they turned their hand to speedway but one had to admire them in forfeiting the traditional route and joining the big boys!

 

I did some checking on the 'Mad Wellie' and although he appeared for Oxford (NL) and Swindon (BL) in 1977 he had in fact commenced riding down at Weymouth in 1973 but turned to grass track before taking up the sport again in 1976 during second halves at Swindon.

 

Pip Lamb made his debut for Oxford during May 1976 after having trials at the Pete Jarman Training School (to which I attended) at Cowley during the previous Winter but he was another accomplished grass track exponent before turning his hand to speedway.

 

By the way Sid...thoroughly enjoyed the Bob Kilby book!

I know Wellie went to the Lew Coffin training school and then concentrated on the grass.You would know this better than most Steve Malc rode alot against Kevin Young who was highly rated often in the junior race at the Abbey Holloway,Young,Pope,Evans rode regular.Young looked good and did quite well for Oxford by the end of the 77 season Holloway was beating Young quite alot.I miss the second halves for me it served its purpose that was then and since then the sport has changed in a different direction.

[The White Knight 9,039]

I know Wellie went to the Lew Coffin training school and then concentrated on the grass.You would know this better than most Steve Malc rode alot against Kevin Young who was highly rated often in the junior race at the Abbey Holloway,Young,Pope,Evans rode regular.Young looked good and did quite well for Oxford by the end of the 77 season Holloway was beating Young quite alot.I miss the second halves for me it served its purpose that was then and since then the sport has changed in a different direction.

Sadly............

[Sidney the robin 4,735]

Going back to the modern day riders Ricko and Crump are the only two for me that would get in a top ten or near to one.No order Mauger,Fundin,Briggs,Olsen,Moore,Nielsen,Crump,Ricko,Young,Craven.

[BWitcher 12,453]

 

So... er... I was talking about the top riders.... I did... er.... mention Crump, Rickardsson and Nielsen compared to today's top riders of Tai Woffinden and Glenn (sorry, Jason) Doyle.

 

When I talk about lower down rider, I'll ask for your advice.

 

Thank you... and good day.

 

Pray, tell me how you judge how good a rider is? Ah yes, how many races he wins.. as such, if you're racing against a lower overall standard, you're going to win more races, doesn't mean you are better.

 

Your thinking is completely flawed.

 

Next you'll be claiming how strong a league was because of all the 10pt heat leaders!

Doncaster,Screen,Loram,Tatum,all were thrown in at the deep end in a really tough BL league i cant remember to many wobblers riding then.

 

You don't remember very well then do you.

 

There were plenty of 'wobblers' riding at reserve.

 

As for tough? It was a better standard, but nowhere near the level of the Polish league now.

[Sidney the robin 4,735]

Pray, tell me how you judge how good a rider is? Ah yes, how many races he wins.. as such, if you're racing against a lower overall standard, you're going to win more races, doesn't mean you are better.

 

Your thinking is completely flawed.

Next you'll be claiming how strong a league was because of all the 10pt heat leaders!

 

You don't remember very well then do you.

 

There were plenty of 'wobblers' riding at reserve.

As for tough? It was a better standard, but nowhere near the level of the Polish league now.

Name me the wobblers then my memory is fine is yours? is Greaves who averaged 2.5 ish this year a wobbler ? of course not you have an opinion on a era you did not even watch.

[orion 7,614]

Just reverting back to the Pedersen vs Gollob comparison for a second...

 

In DIRECT GP competition (taking the thirteen years when both were full-time), it does make interesting reading.

 

They both rode in 131 GP's, with Pedersen scoring 1559 points, and Gollob 1510 (a massive difference of 0.37 points per GP).

 

Pedersen had 3 world titles, and a silver to Gollob's 1 win, a silver and two bronzes. Gollob's lowest finish was 9th, while Pedersen finished lower than that on four occasions.

 

Taking into account individual GP's, Gollob won 44 medals (17 gold, 11 silver, 16 bronze) to Pedersen's 38 (13 gold, 12 silver, 13 bronze).

 

So, Pedersen may have won more world titles, but Gollob appears to be slightly better consistency-wise.

 

Even taking into account their GP performances outside of the head-to-head, there is little to separate them; Gollob had a silver and two bronzes to Pedersen's brace of bronzes.

 

So, virtually nothing to choose between the pair, and I think that gives me enough of a case to consider Gollob the better of the two.

 

Steve

The idea is to win titles not to come 9th etc ..plus Gollob had the advantage of thous home gp not only in Poland but on his own track ..its not for debate the facts clearly show Nicki was better.

[steve roberts 9,242]

I know Wellie went to the Lew Coffin training school and then concentrated on the grass.You would know this better than most Steve Malc rode alot against Kevin Young who was highly rated often in the junior race at the Abbey Holloway,Young,Pope,Evans rode regular.Young looked good and did quite well for Oxford by the end of the 77 season Holloway was beating Young quite alot.I miss the second halves for me it served its purpose that was then and since then the sport has changed in a different direction.

Remember Kevin Young...sacked by Oxford for missing a Northern Tour if I recall?

 

Kevin Pope I recall as a junior at Reading (Tilehurst) before he moved over to Swindon...I, too, missed the second halves.

 

By the way I'm still awaiting, like Aces51, BWitcher to give some examples to substantiate his claims

 

"You could turn up, ride a bike for the first time and be in a team within a few weeks...all from the 70's."

 

I have trawled my back numbers of the magazine 'Backtrack' and haven't, as yet, been able to trace 'numerous examples'?

Name me the wobblers then my memory is fine is yours? is Greaves who averaged 2.5 ish this year a wobbler ? of course not you have an opinion on a era you did not even watch.

Funny, isn't it Sid, but I've been criticised in the past for passing comment on present day speedway and yet someone who never attended speedway during the seventies can pass judgement without rebuke?

Edited November 1, 2017 by steve roberts

[BWitcher 12,453]

Name me the wobblers then my memory is fine is yours? is Greaves who averaged 2.5 ish this year a wobbler ? of course not you have an opinion on a era you did not even watch.

 

Of course Greaves is a 'wobbler', if you are deeming a wobbler to be someone way below the standard of the top riders in the league.

 

Not entirely sure what Greaves has to do with anything, the British League is an irrelevance in a conversation such as this. Back in the 70's and 80's the British League was the top division. Now it is the Polish division and if you are seriously suggesting the British League standard in the 70's and 80's is higher than the Polish League standard of recent years you've got your head screwed on backwards. There are riders who would have been 9pt heat leaders in the British League in the 70's and 80's who wouldn't get a team in Poland. They've moved on, we haven't.

 

I can name a number of riders way, way below the standard of the top guys in teams in the 80's. Chris Cobby, Richard Smith, Andy Sumner, Torben Hansen, Peter Schroek, Carl Bodley, Lee Edwards, Ade Hoole, Flemming Pedersen... those are just some for one team, Wolves, that I can recall of the top of my head. Personally I think 'wobblers' is a disparaging term, but they were well, well below the level of the heat leaders of the time and you would never see a rider anywhere close to that standard in the Polish top flight as it is now. A few more I can remember from Cradley include David Haynes, Anthony Boyd, Mark Meredith, Carl Robinson, Lance Sealey... Bradford would have riders such as Phil Disney, Stuart Parnaby, Simon Green, Bryan Larner, Darren Pearson.. I could go on.

 

As for the Backtrack issue, I'll have to check when I go back to England next and get back to you. Perhaps 'numerous' is OTT but there were certainly two or three interviews I read of that nature and they weren't 'top' guys either who might have had the natural talent. My point is quite simply there is absolutely zero chance of that sort of thing ever happening now. Incidentally, I don't include riders who progressed from grass track in this as they could adapt quite quickly as was shown many times over the years... sadly a source of rider that has pretty much dried up now.

Edited November 1, 2017 by BWitcher

[chunky 6,087]

The idea is to win titles not to come 9th etc ..plus Gollob had the advantage of thous home gp not only in Poland but on his own track ..its not for debate the facts clearly show Nicki was better.

"Not for debate"??? Sorry, do I have to ask your permission to speak???

 

Steve

[Sidney the robin 4,735]

Of course Greaves is a 'wobbler', if you are deeming a wobbler to be someone way below the standard of the top riders in the league.

 

Not entirely sure what Greaves has to do with anything, the British League is an irrelevance in a conversation such as this. Back in the 70's and 80's the British League was the top division. Now it is the Polish division and if you are seriously suggesting the British League standard in the 70's and 80's is higher than the Polish League standard of recent years you've got your head screwed on backwards. There are riders who would have been 9pt heat leaders in the British League in the 70's and 80's who wouldn't get a team in Poland. They've moved on, we haven't.

I can name a number of riders way, way below the standard of the top guys in teams in the 80's. Chris Cobby, Richard Smith, Andy Sumner, Torben Hansen, Peter Schroek, Carl Bodley, Lee Edwards, Ade Hoole, Flemming Pedersen... those are just some for one team, Wolves, that I can recall of the top of my head. Personally I think 'wobblers' is a disparaging term, but they were well, well below the level of the heat leaders of the time and you would never see a rider anywhere close to that standard in the Polish top flight as it is now. A few more I can remember from Cradley include David Haynes, Anthony Boyd, Mark Meredith, Carl Robinson, Lance Sealey... Bradford would have riders such as Phil Disney, Stuart Parnaby, Simon Green, Bryan Larner, Darren Pearson.. I could go on.

As for the Backtrack issue, I'll have to check when I go back to England next and get back to you. Perhaps 'numerous' is OTT but there were certainly two or three interviews I read of that nature and they weren't 'top' guys either who might have had the natural talent. My point is quite simply there is absolutely zero chance of that sort of thing ever happening now. Incidentally, I don't include riders who progressed from grass track in this as they could adapt quite quickly as was shown many times over the years... sadly a source of rider that has pretty much dried up now.

Some of those riders you named rode in the 90s, i believe the 1970/1986 period was a very strong one for British speedway and like yourself i hate the word wobbler it means nothing to me any rider at any level has my full respect.That period for me generally was stronger than it is today the two leagues we have now are CLOSER together than they have ever been.The BL at one time was the best league in the world teams like Ipswich had Louis,Sanders,Davey Belle Vue Mauger, Sjosten, Collins, (1980s Cradley Penhall, Gundersen,Collins,Grahame, (ect) most teams had a in/out no1 and a decent couple of heatleaders.You are right of course there were some weaker riders sometimes to keep within the averages but there is always a place for a trier or a lower class rider who is inconsistent.Personally i believe that period that i named was stronger than it is today mainly because of the TOP CLASS riders now riding in Britain but it is only my OPINION. Edited November 2, 2017 by Sidney the robin

[steve roberts 9,242]

 

Of course Greaves is a 'wobbler', if you are deeming a wobbler to be someone way below the standard of the top riders in the league.

 

Not entirely sure what Greaves has to do with anything, the British League is an irrelevance in a conversation such as this. Back in the 70's and 80's the British League was the top division. Now it is the Polish division and if you are seriously suggesting the British League standard in the 70's and 80's is higher than the Polish League standard of recent years you've got your head screwed on backwards. There are riders who would have been 9pt heat leaders in the British League in the 70's and 80's who wouldn't get a team in Poland. They've moved on, we haven't.

 

I can name a number of riders way, way below the standard of the top guys in teams in the 80's. Chris Cobby, Richard Smith, Andy Sumner, Torben Hansen, Peter Schroek, Carl Bodley, Lee Edwards, Ade Hoole, Flemming Pedersen... those are just some for one team, Wolves, that I can recall of the top of my head. Personally I think 'wobblers' is a disparaging term, but they were well, well below the level of the heat leaders of the time and you would never see a rider anywhere close to that standard in the Polish top flight as it is now. A few more I can remember from Cradley include David Haynes, Anthony Boyd, Mark Meredith, Carl Robinson, Lance Sealey... Bradford would have riders such as Phil Disney, Stuart Parnaby, Simon Green, Bryan Larner, Darren Pearson.. I could go on.

 

As for the Backtrack issue, I'll have to check when I go back to England next and get back to you. Perhaps 'numerous' is OTT but there were certainly two or three interviews I read of that nature and they weren't 'top' guys either who might have had the natural talent. My point is quite simply there is absolutely zero chance of that sort of thing ever happening now. Incidentally, I don't include riders who progressed from grass track in this as they could adapt quite quickly as was shown many times over the years... sadly a source of rider that has pretty much dried up now.

I understand what you are implying regarding the Polish League being the strongest in the world today and differing standards but the analogy that some 'nine point' riders from the seventies and eighties (of which the list is both impressive and extensive) would struggle to get a team place is quite absurd. Again some examples of who you'd think would struggle would be useful so that it can be properly debated on it's merits.

 

One has to remember that the BSPA in their wisdom passed legislation that required a team to declare a 'junior' within the team (1986) which ran for a number of seasons in an attempt to promote home grown talent.

Personally I felt that the initiative, although commendable in theory, fell short of what it was trying to achieve and many riders struggled...although, if I remember, the one 'star' to emerge was Sean Wilson at Sheffield.

 

I'll await with interest when you manage to check back numbers of 'Backtrack'...I'm still trawling thru' mine!

Edited November 2, 2017 by steve roberts

[Humphrey Appleby 13,943]

Now it is the Polish division and if you are seriously suggesting the British League standard in the 70's and 80's is higher than the Polish League standard of recent years you've got your head screwed on backwards. There are riders who would have been 9pt heat leaders in the British League in the 70's and 80's who wouldn't get a team in Poland. They've moved on, we haven't.

It's comparing Apples and Pears. The BL was comprised of 18-20 teams for much of its existence, whereas there are just 8 in the Polish Ekstraliga.

[steve roberts 9,242]

It's comparing Apples and Pears. The BL was comprised of 18-20 teams for much of its existence, whereas there are just 8 in the Polish Ekstraliga.

...I was about to write same but you beat me to it!

Some of those riders you named rode in the 90s, i believe the 1970/1986 period was a very strong one for British speedway and like yourself i hate the word wobbler it means nothing to me any rider at any level has my full respect.That period for me generally was stronger than it is today the two leagues we have now are CLOSER together than they have ever been.The BL at one time was the best league in the world teams like Ipswich had Louis,Sanders,Davey Belle Vue Mauger, Sjosten, Collins, (1980s Cradley Penhall, Gundersen,Collins,Grahame, (ect) most teams had a in/out no1 and a decent couple of heatleaders.You are right of course there were some weaker riders sometimes to keep within the averages but there is always a place for a trier or a lower class rider who is inconsistent.Personally i believe that period that i named was stronger than it is today mainly because of the TOP CLASS riders now riding in Britain but it is only my OPINION.

Some great names there Sid!

 

Quality endues and whatever the era the cream will always rise to the top despite differing bikes/tracks etc as competent motor cyclists adapt whatever the criteria however one could argue that many of todays riders would struggle on less manageable bikes of the past unlike today (to quote Olle Nygren amongst others) where modern bikes are relatively easy to ride...in relative terms.

 

It's always difficult, if nigh impossible, to judge different eras as there are so many factors involved.

Edited November 2, 2017 by steve roberts

[BWitcher 12,453]

It's comparing Apples and Pears. The BL was comprised of 18-20 teams for much of its existence, whereas there are just 8 in the Polish Ekstraliga.

 

That is the entire point.

 

An 18-20 team league gives the impression of there being a multitude of top class heat leaders.

I understand what you are implying regarding the Polish League being the strongest in the world today and differing standards but the analogy that some 'nine point' riders from the seventies and eighties (of which the list is both impressive and extensive) would struggle to get a team place is quite absurd. Again some examples of who you'd think would struggle would be useful so that it can be properly debated on it's merits.

 

 

 

Craig Cook is one prime example.

 

 

Some of those riders you named rode in the 90s, i believe the 1970/1986 period was a very strong one for British speedway and like yourself i hate the word wobbler it means nothing to me any rider at any level has my full respect.That period for me generally was stronger than it is today the two leagues we have now are CLOSER together than they have ever been.The BL at one time was the best league in the world teams like Ipswich had Louis,Sanders,Davey Belle Vue Mauger, Sjosten, Collins, (1980s Cradley Penhall, Gundersen,Collins,Grahame, (ect) most teams had a in/out no1 and a decent couple of heatleaders.You are right of course there were some weaker riders sometimes to keep within the averages but there is always a place for a trier or a lower class rider who is inconsistent.Personally i believe that period that i named was stronger than it is today mainly because of the TOP CLASS riders now riding in Britain but it is only my OPINION.

 

Again you are talking about Britain, that's irrelevant on the World Stage.

 

You 'think' the riders were better solely because of the size of the league. The bigger the league, the more higher averaged riders you will have, the more you see them win, the better you think they are. That's simply mathematical fact.

 

In an 18-20 team league, with no Heat 13 or Heat 15 it is again simple maths that teams will have an out and out number 1 and a couple of decent heat leaders.

Edited November 2, 2017 by BWitcher