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steve roberts

Are We Seeing The Beginning Of The Demise Of The Tory Party?

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9 hours ago, YerRopes said:

What a very pompous reply.. 

I answered your question. 

As per usual you demand answers from other posters, but deflect and fail to answer any questions asked of you. 

That's why I mostly ignore your interruptions.. 

If you look at the reply that you quoted I answered your question and didn't ask you one. 

If you want to ignore my posts , thats no big deal . Its free speech and you can answer or not answer as you think fit, as can everybody else. No Problem .:)

 

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13 hours ago, YerRopes said:

Johnson lied again in his interview with Ms Reid.. 

He didn't introduce the free bus pass, it was introduced in 1973, he disabled the start time to a later 9:30.. 

You like to think off yourself as an independent thinker, but you are nothing but a right wing apologist.. 

But he didn't say he introduced the free bus pass. He said he introduced the 24 hour freedom pass which he sort of did as mayor of London. His answer was carefully not a lie but neither was it the whole story.

However your claim that he said he introduced the free buss pass as it was in 1973 is no more truthful than his reply.

 Clearly independent thinking isn't a left wing strength if you think Addio is a right wing apologist, at most he is slightly right of a real centre. The centre you appear to use is only marginally right of communism.

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10 hours ago, Vince said:

The centre you appear to use is only marginally right of communism.

In what way Vince?

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9 hours ago, YerRopes said:

In what way Vince?

In the way that you are critical of what you call right wing comments that I don't see as being so, as with Addio, I just don't see him as particularly right wing.

I suspect our idea of what we would consider central is quite different, in my opinion both Labour and Conservative have taken up more central positions in the past couple of decades (apart from Corbyn) and in truth there is often very little to choose between the two. I would say that the Conservatives have moved further left than Labour have right though and where they sit now would have been central a few decades ago. I read your posts as suggesting that you would rather see a government that moved further left than they currently are, Communism is an exaggeration I accept but I was just making a point.

Certainly the difference between a Blair and Cameron government wasn't much and even with Johnson and Starmer I think the way they would actually run the country rather than be the opposition wouldn't be so very different. I voted Conservative at the last election because I couldn't imagine anybody being less effective than Corbyn not because I thought Johnson was any good, just the better of two poor options. In a similar way I could never vote for Starmer but so untrustworthy is our political establishment generally these days I suspect I won't vote at all next time and I have always been a firm believer in using your right to vote. The only thing that might get me to vote is the fear of Labour wasting even more of our money than the Tories have managed to.

I do think that anybody who thinks one party is any more honest than the other is kidding themselves.

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5 hours ago, Vince said:

Certainly the difference between a Blair and Cameron government wasn't much and even with Johnson and Starmer I think the way they would actually run the country rather than be the opposition wouldn't be so very different. I voted Conservative at the last election because I couldn't imagine anybody being less effective than Corbyn not because I thought Johnson was any good, just the better of two poor options. In a similar way I could never vote for Starmer but so untrustworthy is our political establishment generally these days I suspect I won't vote at all next time and I have always been a firm believer in using your right to vote. The only thing that might get me to vote is the fear of Labour wasting even more of our money than the Tories have managed to.

I do think that anybody who thinks one party is any more honest than the other is kidding themselves.

I find it quite amusing how people say both major parties are basically the same as each other and do pretty much the same things, yet in the next breath say that's why they'll vote for the Tories. :rolleyes:

And for the record, I don't know Addio personally and I think he does a fair amount of trolling, but some of his views and rhetoric seem fairly far to the right to me. And I hold no particular candle for Labour or the LibDems, but again it's funny how the right-leaning don't see this. [I will say that Addio and I do have some commonalities on trains and the occasional non-political thing though.]

In general though, I think the British political establishment is pretty bankrupt and kept in place by a gerrymandered system that makes it almost impossible for alternative parties to enter politics. Whilst I do think you should participate in a democracy that many fought for, I do so with almost no enthusiasm at the outcome and usually now vote for the candidates most likely to oust the incumbents as a protest at the system.  

Edited by Humphrey Appleby

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2 hours ago, Humphrey Appleby said:

I find it quite amusing how people say both major parties are basically the same as each other and do pretty much the same things, yet in the next breath say that's why they'll vote for the Tories. :rolleyes:

And for the record, I don't know Addio personally and I think he does a fair amount of trolling, but some of his views and rhetoric seem fairly far to the right to me. And I hold no particular candle for Labour or the LibDems, but again it's funny how the right-leaning don't see this. [I will say that Addio and I do have some commonalities on trains and the occasional non-political thing though.]

In general though, I think the British political establishment is pretty bankrupt and kept in place by a gerrymandered system that makes it almost impossible for alternative parties to enter politics. Whilst I do think you should participate in a democracy that many fought for, I do so with almost no enthusiasm at the outcome and usually now vote for the candidates most likely to oust the incumbents as a protest at the system.  

Similar/ basically the same isn't identical and therefore it is still possible to have reasons for preferring one over the other.

For somebody who holds no candle for Labour you do a damn good impression of it.

Opinion on how right Addio is will all depend on what you consider to be central which was the whole point of the post. Clearly your idea of central is left of mine so we see Addios position differently. You'll notice that I was careful not to say which opinion was right in my original post just that they were different. Very obviously I do see Addio's position just as clearly as you do I just don't agree with the view that he is far right.

 It's funny how the left leaning (or you at least) can't understand that their opinions aren't automatically correct.

That's not much of a protest as nobody knows it happened!

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3 minutes ago, Vince said:

Similar/ basically the same isn't identical and therefore it is still possible to have reasons for preferring one over the other.

For somebody who holds no candle for Labour you do a damn good impression of it.

Opinion on how right Addio is will all depend on what you consider to be central which was the whole point of the post. Clearly your idea of central is left of mine so we see Addios position differently. You'll notice that I was careful not to say which opinion was right in my original post just that they were different. Very obviously I do see Addio's position just as clearly as you do I just don't agree with the view that he is far right.

 It's funny how the left leaning (or you at least) can't understand that their opinions aren't automatically correct.

That's not much of a protest as nobody knows it happened!

I think it really just sums up how right you lean if you think I'm left leaning, not to mention that you think Addio is barely right of centre.

When the right starts the rhetoric of 'opinions not being correct', you know you've nailed them. :rolleyes:

I've been accused of being a Tory, Labourite and LimpDem on here over the years, so I suspect that I'm none of the above, which I'm not...

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I am amused to think in the eyes of some I have become a sort of barometer for what is centre or far right, particularly as I have never expressed support for far right politics, or websites, despite having been accused of following them, which I don’t, except in the eyes of those who think Guido  Fawkes or the Mail is far right, while themselves  posting links to the Grauniad and the Indie almost daily.

Conversely , I seem to be the only one that has expressed the view that there should be no cheap Labour and everyone should get a fair rate for the job whoever they are wherever they come from. That is about as Old Labour/Trade Unionist as you can get , yet what we heard from the Lefties was we can’t afford it. As I said before virtually every employment and work place improvement has been met with cries of “we can’t afford it” from the employersfor the last 200 years, but somehow they did thanks to union pressure . It genuinely shocked me that the lefties didn’t support that view. BTW , when I refer to Lefties I mean the Guardian reading, virtue signalling , holier-than-thou , Napoleon from Animal Farm types who live in a fantasy world as opposed to the Old Labour values which I grew up with until they were taken over by intellectuals and ate themselves. 

There are plenty of Labour MP’s whose integrity I admire, such as Graham Stringer but I was told on here that nobody cares what he thinks . I thought thought late Bob Cryer was a terrific person,  and the Labour MP whose name escapes me at the moment who works as an MP as well as being a consultant in an NHS hospital . I doubt whether the virtue signalling Lefties on here have even heard of such people as these, who are actually  very effective in their constituency roles. 

However that wasn’t why you called. Personally I think the terms Left wing and Right wing have been consigned to the past , The world has moved on, Old Labour is gone and forgotten . Blair’s New Labour has been and gone and is now led by someone. who doesn’t know what a woman is helped out by a woman who thinks debate means crossing and uncrossing her legs. The Tories are led by a multiple philanderer who would make Stanley Baldwin turn in his grave. Neither side have my vote although to be fair they are about par for the course in Western politics, not to mention elsewhere. 

If people want to support one side or the other ,that’s up to them, but it’s not for me. If the usual suspects on here want to label me far right or whatever I really don’t care. It’s quite possible in the modern world to form views or have sympathy with views that are not all one side or the other, Of course though I do have a little chuckle to myself at these people who are still living in the Left Wing/RightWing era and as Tsunami says would vote for a donkey if it had the right coloured rosette.

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Yes, i notice you 'really don't care' , by posting yet another load of waffle on the subject :rofl:

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9 hours ago, Vince said:

In the way that you are critical of what you call right wing comments that I don't see as being so, as with Addio, I just don't see him as particularly right wing.

I suspect our idea of what we would consider central is quite different, in my opinion both Labour and Conservative have taken up more central positions in the past couple of decades (apart from Corbyn) and in truth there is often very little to choose between the two. I would say that the Conservatives have moved further left than Labour have right though and where they sit now would have been central a few decades ago. I read your posts as suggesting that you would rather see a government that moved further left than they currently are, Communism is an exaggeration I accept but I was just making a point.

Certainly the difference between a Blair and Cameron government wasn't much and even with Johnson and Starmer I think the way they would actually run the country rather than be the opposition wouldn't be so very different. I voted Conservative at the last election because I couldn't imagine anybody being less effective than Corbyn not because I thought Johnson was any good, just the better of two poor options. In a similar way I could never vote for Starmer but so untrustworthy is our political establishment generally these days I suspect I won't vote at all next time and I have always been a firm believer in using your right to vote. The only thing that might get me to vote is the fear of Labour wasting even more of our money than the Tories have managed to.

I do think that anybody who thinks one party is any more honest than the other is kidding themselves.

I guess it's all down to perspective, you mention above that I appear to be just right of a communist, I've never voted Tory and I doubt I ever will, however back in the day I could respect some Tory MPs without necessarily agreeing with them. 

I consider myself slightly left of centre, but I don't support any political party, although I always vote and voted LimpDem last time in a vain attempt to dislodge the Tory incumbent. 

As for your last comment re honesty, I believe this current Govt to be the worst in my lifetime, partygate, PPE VIP lanes for donors, Covid care home deaths, Brexit supposedly being done, the list goes on. Not forgetting Johnson’s lies every pmqs and the undemocratic voter ID to suppress the poorer voter. 

Time for some sort of PR.. 

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1 hour ago, YerRopes said:

I guess it's all down to perspective, you mention above that I appear to be just right of a communist, I've never voted Tory and I doubt I ever will, however back in the day I could respect some Tory MPs without necessarily agreeing with them. 

I consider myself slightly left of centre, but I don't support any political party, although I always vote and voted LimpDem last time in a vain attempt to dislodge the Tory incumbent. 

As for your last comment re honesty, I believe this current Govt to be the worst in my lifetime, partygate, PPE VIP lanes for donors, Covid care home deaths, Brexit supposedly being done, the list goes on. Not forgetting Johnson’s lies every pmqs and the undemocratic voter ID to suppress the poorer voter. 

Time for some sort of PR.. 

To be fair I did say that the communist remark was an exaggeration.

As for honesty I would argue that the Blair government was no more honest than the current version although a little better at hiding it at the time.

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2 hours ago, iris123 said:

Yes, i notice you 'really don't care' , by posting yet another load of waffle on the subject :rofl:

Posts on the forum should be judged not only in the spirit in which they are written but also in the spirit in which they are read.

So if you decide it’s waffle before you start then waffle it will be, and you might as well not waste your time reading it. 

Waffle or not it is my own thoughts , in contrast with your interminable cut and pastes, such as on the Trump threads, which substitute for coherent opinions of your own.

:approve:

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The lady doth protest too much, methinks :rolleyes:

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12 hours ago, E I Addio said:

I am amused to think in the eyes of some I have become a sort of barometer for what is centre or far right, particularly as I have never expressed support for far right politics, or websites, despite having been accused of following them, which I don’t, except in the eyes of those who think Guido  Fawkes or the Mail is far right, while themselves  posting links to the Grauniad and the Indie almost daily.

But you previously said that didn't read Guido... 

 

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10 hours ago, Vince said:

As for honesty I would argue that the Blair government was no more honest than the current version although a little better at hiding it at the time.

Whether it was or it wasn't more honest, it was certainly more competent, especially during its first term. 

The fact that Johnson's government isn't very good at covering up, actually demonstrates its incompetence. 

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