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steve roberts

Are We Seeing The Beginning Of The Demise Of The Tory Party?

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Vince said:

Appalled me but it seems the party is more important than the crime to some. 

It would appall all decent people, and of course would be more appalling if Denis MacShane actually had anything to do with it. It's yet another of those things where acolytes of the right have twisted certain comments of his into a narrative that suggests he had full - let alone any - knowledge of the crimes and that he covered them up. At the end of the day, the responsibility and failure was on the part of social services and the police to have fully investigated and prosecuted such things.

To be clear that even without the Rotherham case surrounding him, Denis MacShane is a pretty disreputable individual who should have no place in politics. However, this is continually used by right-wing acolytes as whataboutery to excuse the appalling behaviour of what is largely Tory MPs (and some former ministers as well) that is coming to light. And you can be sure that if it's coming to light now, it's been going on since time immemorial...

And if there had been any sniff of a Labour MP being charged with rape, you could be sure one person on here would have been the first to bring it up - just for public interest reasons of course... :rolleyes:

Edited by Humphrey Appleby
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Humphrey Appleby said:

It would appall all decent people, and of course would be more appalling if Denis MacShane actually had anything to do with it. It's yet another of those things where acolytes of the right have twisted certain comments of his into a narrative that suggests he had full - let alone any - knowledge of the crimes and that he covered them up. At the end of the day, the responsibility and failure was on the part of social services and the police to have fully investigated and prosecuted such things.

To be clear that even without the Rotherham case surrounding him, Denis MacShane is a pretty disreputable individual who should have no place in politics. However, this is continually used by right-wing acolytes as whataboutery to excuse the appalling behaviour of what is largely Tory MPs (and some former ministers as well) that is coming to light. And you can be sure that if it's coming to light now, it's been going on since time immemorial...

And if there had been any sniff of a Labour MP being charged with rape, you could be sure one person on here would have been the first to bring it up - just for public interest reasons of course... :rolleyes:

What complete and utter nonsense.

The vast majority of posters on here, and indeed the vast majority of people, I would say, know that’s what’s wrong is wrong, irrespective of which party they come from. 

You are the one that wants to constantly, incessantly, point the finger only  at the Tories for various misdemeanours on the old Left Wing /Right Wing basis, as if nobody else does anything wrong, hence the link to the Guardian you put up. You are in fact unwittingly doing it again in your above post by putting in the nasty little dig about former Tory ministers while at same time keeping quiet about the fact that two Labour shadow cabinet members are also under investigation as well, or for that matter the activities of Cyril Smith MP , probably the worst of the worst.

Going by media reports it does seem that sexual misdemeanours are disproportionately Tories, but two wrongs don’t make right and any MP guilty of such conduct needs to be exposed, just as they do for any other serious wrong doing. As I said before, different snouts, same trough. However it is, IMO a mistake, and indeed a bigotry to tar all MP’s with the same brush.  The principle of presumed innocent until proven guilty  still prevails in this country.

As far as Dennis McShane is concerned, nobody is twisting anything. It was his job to investigate the sexual abuse of children and by his own admission he chose not to for “ multicultural “ reasons.

 

Edited by E I Addio
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32 minutes ago, E I Addio said:

It was his job to investigate the sexual abuse of children and by his own admission he chose not to for “ multicultural “ reasons.

No, it was not his job, nor that of any MP for that matter. The police, social services and CPS have that responsibility. 

If he was aware of things happening then he certainly had a moral responsibility to push those authorities into taking action, and as a MP would have more influence than most. But he has argued that he was not aware of the crimes beyond superficial knowledge or how widespread they were, nor how far they'd (not) been investigated by the responsible authorities. He subsequently said he wished he done more in light of the horrendous nature of what eventually came out, but is something different to the narrative constantly parroted by right-wing acolytes. You can take or leave his protestations - as a convicted fraudster and generally disreputable individual - but inaction is not actually a crime whereas being a perpetrator of a crime is. 

Who is defending Cyril Smith, but that happened years ago, he is long dead, and he also represented what is now a defunct party. How far do we have to go back here in order to point out that a Tory former-minister has been charged with rape and other offences, without whataboutery harking back to historic cases involving former Labour and Liberal MPs? 

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1 hour ago, Humphrey Appleby said:

No, it was not his job, nor that of any MP for that matter. The police, social services and CPS have that responsibility. 

If he was aware of things happening then he certainly had a moral responsibility to push those authorities into taking action, and as a MP would have more influence than most. But he has argued that he was not aware of the crimes beyond superficial knowledge or how widespread they were, nor how far they'd (not) been investigated by the responsible authorities. He subsequently said he wished he done more in light of the horrendous nature of what eventually came out, but is something different to the narrative constantly parroted by right-wing acolytes. You can take or leave his protestations - as a convicted fraudster and generally disreputable individual - but inaction is not actually a crime whereas being a perpetrator of a crime is. 

Who is defending Cyril Smith, but that happened years ago, he is long dead, and he also represented what is now a defunct party. How far do we have to go back here in order to point out that a Tory former-minister has been charged with rape and other offences, without whataboutery harking back to historic cases involving former Labour and Liberal MPs? 

Hump, you just make yourself look more and more ridiculous continually trying to defend the indefensible. Of course it was Macshanes job to investigate serious crime in his constituency, just as Simon Hughes was instrumental in bringing the killlers of Jamie Robe to justice despite assassination threats to himself, just as Chris Smith was instrumental in getting the murder of Daniel Morgan re-investigated, and as others have done.

Lets look the known facts, not what’s said by your imaginary right wing acolytes: - 

1. MacShane became the local MP in 1994. Child abuse in Rotherham was known to be happening since the 1980’s , but widespread child abuse by British-Asian gangs of Pakistani origin,  based around taxis started in 1997. Therefore Macshane  presided over it for some 15 years in total.

2.Between  2002 and 2006 the council failed to act on three reports of child abuse in Rotherham. Are to believe that the local MP knew nothing about what his local council were doing or was he turning  blind eye?

3.In a party that supposedly prides itself on gender equality all the Asian councillors were men. In fact Macshanes former partner reounts the time they were invited to an Asian councillors daughters wedding reception but she refused to go when she discovered that men and women were to be segregated. How can anyone say that separation by gender is any more acceptable than separation by race?

4 .The current MP who replaced MacShane , Sarah Champion , has done an out standing job at taking child abuse in all its forms so it is futile to try to  claim it was not Macshanes job to do so. He admits he knew about it , he even admits he asked questions, he admits he was fobbed off , and he admits he could have done more. His quote was “ As a true Guardian reader, and liberal leftie, I suppose I didn’t want to raise that too hard “. What a contrast with Simon Hughes MP who ignored assassination threats to do his job properly.

Of course MacShane knew full well what was going on, and was in position to act if he had a bit of backbone instead of appeasing his local council and by his own admission, failing to act.

All this has nothing to do with your Left wing / Right wing nonsense. Wrong doing of any kind doesn’t observe part lines. 

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6 hours ago, Humphrey Appleby said:

However, this is continually used by right-wing acolytes as whataboutery to excuse the appalling behaviour of what is largely Tory MPs (and some former ministers as well) that is coming to light. 

You'll have to quote the post excusing the appalling Tory behaviour as I can't see it. 

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Posted (edited)

So, Alex Belfield has named the unidentified MP accused of assault.I am actually quite shocked as he seems to have been a diligent MP who looked after his constituents very well. Not one of the usual fly by nighters. But a little bit of history falls into place. Innocent until proven guilty though, but it’s going to devastate the person concerned if he goes down for it. 

As far as Belfield is concerned four out of 12 cases against him now dropped, the BBC solicitor struck of for dishonesty , DC Percival of Nottinghamshire Police caught forging a judges signature to fraudulently extend the terms of bail and Nottinghamshire Police lost 13,000 files. These are the people in high places that are supposedly our public servants.

Edited by E I Addio
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4 hours ago, E I Addio said:

So, Alex Belfield has named the unidentified MP accused of assault.I am actually quite shocked as he seems to have been a diligent MP who looked after his constituents very well. 

Your MP is it? :D

Also a jingoistic bigot who advocates being tougher on crime, and a Brextremist to boot...

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, Humphrey Appleby said:

Your MP is it? :D

Also a jingoistic bigot who advocates being tougher on crime, and a Brextremist to boot...

No he is not my MP. Whether or not he is a jingoistic bigot , I do not know. Perhaps he is or perhaps  that is just your bigoted opinion as we all know how twisted your outlook has become since Brexit. 
As for being tougher on crime I don’t see what is wrong with that if it reduces criminality and makes a better job of stopping young men being stabbed to death in London than Mayor Khan’t has done. 
I do actually know two people in his constituency, of whom one speaks very highly of him as a constituency MP the other knew him growing up and didn’t like him much then  but don’t know him first hand, and personally don’t judge people according to whether they did or didn’t vote for Brexit so I can’t add to that.

Edited by E I Addio

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5 minutes ago, E I Addio said:

As for being tougher on crime I don’t see what is wrong with that if it reduces criminality and makes a better job of stopping young men being stabbed to death in London than Mayor Khan’t has done. 

Most of the civilised world has consigned the death penalty to history, yet this individual advocates it. Also another anti-gay bigot.

These sorts of dinosaurs seem to be happy to apply draconian legislation to others, whilst not thinking it should apply to them. 

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27 minutes ago, Humphrey Appleby said:

Most of the civilised world has consigned the death penalty to history, yet this individual advocates it. Also another anti-gay bigot.

 

There are also a lot of punishments that don’t fit the crime. We don’t live in a perfect world. Actions have consequences.  The death penalty belongs to the past but the Human Rights Brigade have done precious little to turn back the tide of violent crime, and especially crimes against children. 

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What lovely news. Congratulations. Something to cheer everyone as the cost of living soars.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-61490481 

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Whitewash...

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Dennis Skinner wasn't wrong was he...

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