Best Ever Finnish Rider

[Guest]

The first year the Internationale was held (1961),qualifying rounds took place and some riders who were not riding for National League teams in Britain were invited over. I saw the round at New Cross and I remember that Timo Laine took part but only scored two points. I seem to recall that he was riding on borrowed equipment but I might be wrong.

 

Timo Laine was using a borrowed bike for the Internationale series. His own bikes - I think later found - had been stolen while he was on a racing tour of Holland.

[Triple.H. 1,981]

 

Ari Kopenen (Kai's bother-in-law) was an enigma throughout his career. Recall him starting at Birmingham and finishing at Swindon

Bloody Hell how many yards was a lap of that track ?

 

Pekka Hautamaki was a rider I enjoyed watching

Edited December 10, 2017 by Triple.H.

[iris123 20,935]

Mikka Loppi was tipped to be a star.What ever happened to him?

[norbold 7,100]

The first year the Internationale was held (1961),qualifying rounds took place and some riders who were not riding for National League teams in Britain were invited over. I saw the round at New Cross and I remember that Timo Laine took part but only scored two points. I seem to recall that he was riding on borrowed equipment but I might be wrong.

Yes, I was there that night as well (I don't remember seeing you though ). Timo Laine did indeed score two points. He managed to beat Dick Fisher and Neil Mortimer, who finished with zero points.

[fatface 2,549]

If we compare them at least in the British League,as for the earlier riders we don't have Polish comparisons(not sure if they rode in Sweden?)

 

We have

 

Teromaa

 

1975..Leicester..34..132..154..41..5.91

1976..Leicester..34..144..266..17..7.86..1F

1977..Leicester..29..135..281..20..8.92

1978..Leicester..37..159..324..22..8.70..4F..1P

1979..Leicester..20..79..115..9..6.28

1979..Cradley..2..8..11..2..6.50

1980..Cradley..33..130..142..31..5.32..1P

 

world finalist 1978

Niemi

1976..White City..29..99..94..26..4.85

1977..White City..39..164..234..47..6.85

1978..White City..34..137..227.5..18..7.17

1979..Eastbourne..34..164..348..11..8.76..4F..1P

1980..Eastbourne..23..113..228..8..8.35..2F

1981..Eastbourne..1..5..6..1..5.60

1981..Birmingham..48..222..367..46..7.44..1P

1982..Wimbledon..42..185..329..43..8.04..2F..2P

1983..Wimbledon..44..181..320..27..7.67..1F..1P

1984..Ipswich..50..201..371..30..7.98..3F..1P

1985..Ipswich..39..161..201..46..6.14

1986..Swindon..23..98..203..4..8.45..1F

1986..Ipswich..16..67..130..4..8.00

1987..Ipswich..45..186..328..26..7.61

1988..Ipswich..38..180..278..31..6.87

1989..Coventry..30..105..104..19..4.69

1991..Long Eaton..12..48..73..7..6.67

 

world finalist 80,82,84,85

 

Kylmäkorpi

2001..Eastbourne..38..158..185..28..5.39..1P

2002..Ipswich..30..122..131..20..4.95

2003..Arena Essex..35..178..403..28..9.69..1F..2P

2003..Eastbourne..40..182..303..32..7.36..2F

2004..Eastbourne..30..127..187..36..7.02..1P

2005..Coventry..14..70..111..15..7.20..1F

2005..Peterborough..12..56..86..15..7.21

2006..Arena Essex..32..158..299..20..8.08..1P

2007..Lakeside..21..100..153..30..7.32

2008..Lakeside..27..123..181..42..7.25

2009..Lakeside..29..125..189..23..6.78..1P

2010..Eastbourne..34..165..286..26..7.56..1P

2011..Eastbourne..34..158..288..25..7.92..1F..2P

2012..Eastbourne..14..65..117..13..8.00

2013..Peterborough..12..52..91..8..7.62..1P

2014..Eastbourne..30..130..201..14..6.62..1P

2015..Coventry..24..101..171..17..7.45..1F

2016..Wolves..15..66..108..12..7.27

 

GP wildcard 4 times?

http://wwosbackup.proboards.com/thread/1566/joonas-kylmakorpi

 

I would say Joonas is better without doubt than Teromaa and comparable if not better than Niemi given he rode in a tougher environment as I have shown a few times when you compare say the number of over 10+ averages in 1964 to the number in a larger league in 1965.The larger the league the easier it is to get a higher average.So Joonas has done very well,especially seeing as he often had an injury.So as far as I am concerned there is no way Niemi is head and shoulders above the rest and no way Teromaa is easily the next best.Not on these stats.I'd also say there is not much chance that Kai would have made 4 GP series

 

I was actually a bit surprised,because I thought Niemi would be a good bit better than Joonas at speedway,but to me it doesn't pan out like that

Now there is a spirited case! Kylmakorpis record is certainly better than I thought. But...and it is Kardashian sized...I dont think the BL comparisons are valid.

 

Niemi rode in the UK when it was unquestionably the worlds toughest league, Kylmakorpi rode when it was unquestionably not.

 

Also whilst Joonas only got onto the sports premier stage via wild cards, Niemi fully earned his World Final appearances - and acquitted himself pretty well too. Admittedly it flatters him to say this, but he was one ride away from being World Champion in 85. There are better riders who you cannot say that of.

 

So, yes still clearly Niemi for me. But Kylmakorpi comes closer to the likes of Teromaa than I initially thought.

[f-s-p 832]

Mikka Loppi was tipped to be a star.What ever happened to him?

Mika Loppi found a solid financial support behind him for season 2016 and did reasonably well in Finland and in Swedish 1st division. Then about a year ago he decided to go to Lebanon or similar to fix UN/Finnish military vehicles. And for what Im told likes it. I spoke to him last July as he was on holiday and had not made up yet whether to sign for another stint or come back.

[iris123 20,935]

Trouble is when you look back Kai got into the world finals generally by a fairly easy route and hardly had to ride outside Scandinavia to do it.The one time he did,i think he had to ride at White City of all places!!!!

 

Saying that he did do well once or twice and a couple of times only finished above riders he would have been expected to.

 

Difficult to compare because of the years between them and the change in world qualifying systems and change in league size and strength.I take your points and also the point about the strength of the longtrack now compared to back then.I do think there is little to choose between them

[steve roberts 9,242]

Trouble is when you look back Kai got into the world finals generally by a fairly easy route and hardly had to ride outside Scandinavia to do it.The one time he did,i think he had to ride at White City of all places!!!!

 

Saying that he did do well once or twice and a couple of times only finished above riders he would have been expected to.

 

Difficult to compare because of the years between them and the change in world qualifying systems and change in league size and strength.I take your points and also the point about the strength of the longtrack now compared to back then.I do think there is little to choose between them

...although he failed to qualify from White City in 1977!

[iris123 20,935]

...although he failed to qualify from White City in 1977!

Forgot about that.I was looking at his path to the 1980 world final.And it does show up the problems with the old system,because no way would you say Kai was better than Ole Olsen or Ivan Mauger or Peter Collins or Michael Lee,but on that night at that track he finished above them.What are we supposed to get from that stat?

 

As I mentioned elsewhere in a series of one off individual meetings a rider like Lubos Tomicek was a finger tip away from qualifying for the GP series and a 2nd tier rider like Kyle Legault made it all the way to the Challenge!!!

Edited December 10, 2017 by iris123

[fatface 2,549]

Forgot about that.I was looking at his path to the 1980 world final.And it does show up the problems with the old system,because no way would you say Kai was better than Ole Olsen or Ivan Mauger or Peter Collins or Michael Lee,but on that night at that track he finished above them.What are we supposed to get from that stat?

 

As I mentioned elsewhere in a series of one off individual meetings a rider like Lubos Tomicek was a finger tip away from qualifying for the GP series and a 2nd tier rider like Kyle Legault made it all the way to the Challenge!!!

Of course. Im not trying to paint Kai Niemi as some under rated world beater. He was not, but he was a very high level international racer for a good chunk of time. Facts are that he reached four World Finals and acquitted himself well when he got there. We are not talking a Petr Ondrasik-esque (try saying that after a few pints) situation here.

 

We can speculate as to the abilities of each rider if they were in different eras. But as far as Finnish speedway riders go, none have a record that remotely compares with Niemis.

 

Ps. Keeping the big issues of the day rumbling on...anyone know why iPhones lose the apostrophes when posting on this site?

Edited December 10, 2017 by falcace

[iris123 20,935]

It is difficult to compare,as I said.Joonas never had the mainly Scandinavian or home English track route.Maybe f-s-p will expand,but looks like he wasn't that often nominated for the GP qualifiers anyway

 

Something tends to remind me that there were clashes with the Longtrack????Seem to have the idea it gave Smolinski trouble as well

Edited December 10, 2017 by iris123

[f-s-p 832]

It is difficult to compare,as I said.Joonas never had the mainly Scandinavian or home English track route.Maybe f-s-p will expand,but looks like he wasn't that often nominated for the GP qualifiers anyway

From about 2006 onwards I think Joonas always had a slot if he wanted one. Cant comment before that cos cant remember and dont know. The thing is that Kylmä was often out injured. I think one year he was even run over by a team mate at Lakeside AFTER the race was finished and that was it for his dream of SGP that year. Bad luck and poor timing of injuries many years...

 

And yes, Id also say its difficult to compare, near impossible.

It is difficult to compare,as I said.Joonas never had the mainly Scandinavian or home English track route.Maybe f-s-p will expand,but looks like he wasn't that often nominated for the GP qualifiers anyway

From about 2006 onwards I think Joonas always had a slot if he wanted one. Cant comment before that cos cant remember and dont know. The thing is that Kylmä was often out injured. I think one year he was even run over by a team mate at Lakeside AFTER the race was finished and that was it for his dream of SGP that year. Bad luck and poor timing of injuries many years...

 

And yes, Id also say its difficult to compare, near impossible. U just need to pick an opinion and stick with it.

[iris123 20,935]

From about 2006 onwards I think Joonas always had a slot if he wanted one. Cant comment before that cos cant remember and dont know. The thing is that Kylmä was often out injured. I think one year he was even run over by a team mate at Lakeside AFTER the race was finished and that was it for his dream of SGP that year. Bad luck and poor timing of injuries many years...

 

And yes, Id also say its difficult to compare, near impossible.

From about 2006 onwards I think Joonas always had a slot if he wanted one. Cant comment before that cos cant remember and dont know. The thing is that Kylmä was often out injured. I think one year he was even run over by a team mate at Lakeside AFTER the race was finished and that was it for his dream of SGP that year. Bad luck and poor timing of injuries many years...

 

And yes, Id also say its difficult to compare, near impossible. U just need to pick an opinion and stick with it.

Yes,i did mention in an earlier post that his career was hampered by a number of injuries.And we agree on that.I do think it extremely close with Joonas just ahead,but can understand others who will say Kai was the best.A few times he did quite well,winning or coming 2nd in qualifiers,but also had to ride in Hungary etc which as I said Kai's route back then was mostly riding in Scandinavia to qualify for a world final

Edited December 10, 2017 by iris123

[f-s-p 832]

When did the quali system change? I remember Laukkanen winning an intercontinental final in 2003 but only qualis and semis when we talk of Kylmä.

[fatface 2,549]

Yes,i did mention in an earlier post that his career was hampered by a number of injuries.And we agree on that.I do think it extremely close with Joonas just ahead,but can understand others who will say Kai was the best.A few times he did quite well,winning or coming 2nd in qualifiers,but also had to ride in Hungary etc which as I said Kai's route back then was mostly riding in Scandinavia to qualify for a world final

I think the Scandinavia line is a bit of a red herring. Did Kai Niemi have an advantage over the Brits, Danes, Yanks, Aussies, Kiwis when racing in Sweden just because he was born in a neighbouring country? I dont think so. Was he riding in the Swedish League with regular access to Vetlanda? Dont think so.

 

The route line also only really has some merit if its a one-off (like in 89 when fellow countryman Tyravainen qualified in an injury ravaged year for top riders) or if he had been clearly out of his depth when he reached the final (see Mr Ondrasik). Neither is the case.

 

He reached four finals including finishing fourth and eighth in World Finals on neutral tracks. Again, fourth! Thats way, way above any other Finnish speedway achievement in the worlds most prestigious competition. That fact is inarguable.

 

You could make all the conjecture you like about the respective merits of this rider or that. But you will not be able to produce facts like that about any other Finn.