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T.N.T.

Why 2 Leagues

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The argument of not enough riders to fill all the team places in one big league is not valid. There may not be enough British riders at the moment (due to doubling up) but there are stil plenty of talented riders overseas (Aussis, Kiwis, Yanks, etc), in Scandinavia, and on the Continent, who are just waitng for a chance to ride in the British League.

Edited by Bavarian

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9 minutes ago, Bavarian said:

The argument of not enough riders to fill all the team places in one big league is not valid. There may not be enough British riders at the moment (due to doubling up) but there are stil plenty of talented riders overseas (Aussis, Kiwis, Yanks, etc), in Scandinavia, and on the Continent, who are just waitng for a chance to ride in the British League.

But at what price?

The attendances at the lower end in the Championship are 4-500

They wont sustain the proposal

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The lower end teams of the Championship would have to go National League then. If the one big league has about sixteen to eighteen teams, that's all right. 

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14 minutes ago, Bavarian said:

The lower end teams of the Championship would have to go National League then. If the one big league has about sixteen to eighteen teams, that's all right. 

And ergo you have effectively created a two-tier league system again.

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Agree with both of these points and it is a situation I thought may happen but each half of the Championship diesnt seem to want whats on offer...

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21 minutes ago, Bavarian said:

The lower end teams of the Championship would have to go National League then. If the one big league has about sixteen to eighteen teams, that's all right. 

 

6 minutes ago, MattK said:

And ergo you have effectively created a two-tier league system again.

See above - buggered up multi quote :unsure:

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On 06/01/2018 at 11:16 AM, Skidder1 said:

Its true that the sport as a whole cannot afford the top boys BUT there is a handful of clubs who could afford some of them so why not go for one big league (of approx. Championship level) and allow the handful of clubs to also run a 'Super League' set up if they can afford it and reckon they can attract the crowds?

The likes of Wolves, Poole, Rye House, Glasgow, Sheffield etc are backed by a combination of successful businesses and sponsorship and could easily operate a top league on a set night and also run a Championship-level team in the bigger one league?

 

It could be the best of both worlds.

 

23 hours ago, stevebrum said:

Exactly. My sentiments echo that. 

 

Many years ago (well over a decade) I came up with the idea that became known by some as the TNT Master plan and that was having one big league at an affordable level. 

 

Then the tracks that want to run at a higher level ALSO run a top league on Mondays only meaning the one league can run on any other day they wish so clubs won' have to change race nights apart from Wolverhampton. 

 

If Wolves for example had a team in the one league of Thorssell  Schlein Howarth Heaps Morris Greaves and Clegg they would use the main five from this team plus two riders taken from a squad of 4 riders they nominate at the start of the season. 

 

Wolves could name Lindgren Woffinden Pawlicki and Drabik with two riding in the 14 league meetings during the season on Mondays. Lindgren may do all 14 while Woffinden and Pawlicki could do 7 each and Drabik on standby should he be required and travel over with Woffinden or instead of. 

 

This means also Drabik could be used if Thorssell or Schlein are injured while Greaves and Clegg get used if any of the others are missing. 

 

The one big league would run pretty freely and the club' not also running a top level team could be put into two groups for the Craven Shield to even up the fixtures and give two local derbies in some cases. 

 

 

17 hours ago, Grachan said:

Difference being the two leagues had different riders. The two leagues now have a lot of the same riders in them.

Also, when the two leagues combined intonthe BL, it had the best riders in the world in it.

That is not what is being advocated here. 

 

Exactly. The mistake before was making the small clubs employ riders they couldn' afford against teams they couldn' beat. 

 

17 hours ago, BWitcher said:

Reserve teams are not popular.. in any sport. 

 

16 hours ago, Grachan said:

Exactly. Plus, the teams in this 'Super League' would struggle to get support for their championship strength sides.

So they would stop running them. And there you have it. Two leagues again.

 

If Poole or Wolves or Belle Vue or Swindon etc ran in both leagues the fans would still go to meetings as they still wear their teams colours and five of the seven are the same riders in both teams.

 

Plus Swindon may do poorly in the top league but be top in the lower league and you only have to look at Belle Vue Colts to see the fans support both levels now even though those two leagues were further apart. 

 

 

One big league.is the way forward for the sport like it or not

 

One top league of just 14 meetings can be done as it is in Sweden and Poland and then could attract more riders back and entrance to the two levels would be different at say £12-15 for the big league and £20 for the top level as many would pay the extra to see Sayfutdinov v Woffinden v Doyle v Pedersen etc 

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They wouldn't. 

The majority of fans would go to the senior team and skip the 'reserve team'.

Where are you getting £12-15 from? Second division teams are already charging nearly as much as first division sides as it is, i.e. more than £12-15.

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1 hour ago, T.N.T. said:

The one big league would run pretty freely and the club' not also running a top level team could be put into two groups for the Craven Shield to even up the fixtures and give two local derbies in some cases. 

Exactly. The mistake before was making the small clubs employ riders they couldn' afford against teams they couldn' beat. 

If Poole or Wolves or Belle Vue or Swindon etc ran in both leagues the fans would still go to meetings as they still wear their teams colours and five of the seven are the same riders in both teams.

Plus Swindon may do poorly in the top league but be top in the lower league and you only have to look at Belle Vue Colts to see the fans support both levels now even though those two leagues were further apart. 

One big league.is the way forward for the sport like it or not

One top league of just 14 meetings can be done as it is in Sweden and Poland and then could attract more riders back and entrance to the two levels would be different at say £12-15 for the big league and £20 for the top level as many would pay the extra to see Sayfutdinov v Woffinden v Doyle v Pedersen etc 

Unfortunately, all the evidence suggests that wouldn't work. Look at all the Elite League clubs who have tried running a National League team over the years. Swindon, Poole, King's Lynn, Lakeside, Wolves and how many are still running? The only one still running is Wolves and that is because they came up with a clever marketing technique and called their side first Dudley and now Cradley Heathens.

There is nothing to suggest that fans of the same club would support your two-tier idea.

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1 hour ago, MattK said:

Unfortunately, all the evidence suggests that wouldn't work. Look at all the Elite League clubs who have tried running a National League team over the years. Swindon, Poole, King's Lynn, Lakeside, Wolves and how many are still running? The only one still running is Wolves and that is because they came up with a clever marketing technique and called their side first Dudley and now Cradley Heathens.

There is nothing to suggest that fans of the same club would support your two-tier idea.

I think you might be in trouble suggesting that Cradley are Wolverhampton's NL team. :lol:

Belle Vue are the only PL team running a NL team. The crowds for the Colts were decent at that level but way below those for the Aces despite the excellent racing and admission fees of £10 for adults, £8 for concessions and free admission for anyone under 18.

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On 05/01/2018 at 2:41 PM, 1 valve said:

 

whilst both fall short of the 17 you propose there are two other significant aspects to consider.

1. at any one time there are circa 10% of riders unavailable through one reason or another (mostly injury) so reality is there would be a lot of guest riders required.

2. Safety would also be a greater issue as there is a massive skill difference between say the top 25% of the Premier league riders and the lower 25% of the Championship riders. I recall Jason Doyle a few seasons back voicing his concerns in this regard and this point should not be readily ignored.

 

 

I think you’re wrong on all three points:

rider shortage is a myth; there are plenty to go around without doubling up - look at the new Scandinavians coming into the CL, the Brits who cannot get places and the 8 point PL riders/potential returners who have been frozen out - so we could easily have seventeen teams in one league, especially if two under 23 NL Brits at reserve were compulsory;

guests come from the other teams, so there would be plenty as long as every team did not ride on the same night;

Jason Doyle spent the whole of last season riding against 2 pointers (and the whole Poole team :) ) so wobblers aren’t impossible to overcome, in fact they should be behind by the first bend or easily overtaken with faster bikes and better track craft. His injuries come in the GPs when he over rides or takes bigger risks.

Let’s have one league, the British League; much better than these Premiership and Championship delusions!

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9 hours ago, BWitcher said:

They wouldn't. 

The majority of fans would go to the senior team and skip the 'reserve team'.

Where are you getting £12-15 from? Second division teams are already charging nearly as much as first division sides as it is, i.e. more than £12-15.

Most Championship teams charge only a pound or 2 less than the top flight. 

It's usually the 2nd tier that is the overpriced one. 

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I honestly believe that the league this year is actually stronger than last year. Top end has been reduced but we have seen an influx of much better 5 ish point riders. 

 

There is still a huge gulf in class. Let’s just look at a team. 

All of Pooles team ride in top 2 tiers of Polish speedway.

Leicester will have Danny King most likely at number 4. 

 

While Ipswich will have him at 1. Huge gulf in class still.  

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1 hour ago, poolebolton said:

I honestly believe that the league this year is actually stronger than last year. Top end has been reduced but we have seen an influx of much better 5 ish point riders. 

 

There is still a huge gulf in class. Let’s just look at a team. 

All of Pooles team ride in top 2 tiers of Polish speedway.

Leicester will have Danny King most likely at number 4. 

 

While Ipswich will have him at 1. Huge gulf in class still.  

 

Nick Morris number one at Lakeside and Swindon

Chris Harris number one at Rye House number 5 at Glasgow

 

the difference between the two leagues is virtually swapping the number one from a Premiership team with a National League rider

 

 

2 hours ago, stevebrum said:

Most Championship teams charge only a pound or 2 less than the top flight. 

It's usually the 2nd tier that is the overpriced one. 

 

Both over priced really but agree the Championship is vastly over priced considering the wage bill and running costs are much more in the Premiership. 

 

£17-18 is too much in the present climate and considering other entertainments available and the standard of riders now present in Britain it's hard to see why it's over £15 and certainly not an attractive price to try and entice people into the sport. 

 

A friend end recently went to an Aston Villa match and paid £20 for a seat in a grandstand to watch 90 minutes of football then the following day had a day at the races for £10. Had he of taken his wife and kids to a speedway meeting he would have been looking at roughly £50 while a family ticket at the racing was £20.

 

 

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18 hours ago, T.N.T. said:

 

 

Many years ago (well over a decade) I came up with the idea that became known by some as the TNT Master plan and that was having one big league at an affordable level. 

 

But surely , this idea is directed to only a few clubs.      That is the reasons  why our sport is in the troubles it is,  too many promoters thinking about number one..       Any ideas has to be aimed at the sport as a whole,   one that can be sustainable  and be  beneficial to all parties.    

Most supporters are sensible people and can see the numbers don't add up, they know the days of top riders has gone.      others, just bury their heads, thinking that don't mean us, we're alright Jack !!      but I would rather we restructure now and continue to watch some speedway in the future,    than see more clubs fall by the wayside......

If that means only a single league then so be it.......

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