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Joe Jacobs

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13 hours ago, Hodgy said:

 

Not so sure you have answered the question as intended. 

No, they haven't.

13 hours ago, SCB said:

Because Workington paid a stupid amount of money for Mason Campton a number of years ago form Glasgow based on God only knows what. A promoter who had been given a load of cash after an accident and didn't know the value of money so just went mad it would seem. She now sticks with Mason Campton because having paid all that money, to throw him away now would mean losing that initial investment, she still probably hopes and prays every night Mason is going to come good so she can get back some of that alleged £12,000. If she drops Mason he'll go back to Aus and never be heard of again. Now if she was going to use Joe Jacobs she'd have to pay a loan fee, so on top of losing her investment in Campton, she's also paying to rent someone else riders. Scrap the asset system and she has zero investment in Campton beyond his 1 year contract and she can sign Jacobs at no cost.

In short, promoters love a foreign rider because they cost nothing to sign and if they turn out to be any good they get loan fees. Yet young Brits are often snapped up as assets by Premiership clubs and sent out on loan and cost the Championship teams money.

Scrap the asset system and I'm sure you'll see less promoters risking it with dodgy foreigners based on one or two meetings in Aus or individuals in September/October and more promoters willing to take a risk on young British riders. In scrapping the asset system I'd be willing to allow every club to have until January 1st to first call on a rider, if they offer him terms that match any other club then the poaching club has to pay the poached from club a fee or you would have a situation where the rich club would just sweep up all the good, young riders each closed season.

Personally, I think your arguments in favour of employing British riders are more persuasive - and this isn't just about Mason Campton.

To me, the problem is less about the asset system and more about doubling up. Restrict the number of riders that can do so and its likely that both Jacobs and Ellis Perks would have found at least one team place.

Speaking of Campton , having watched him last season of the Workington riders that finished 2017 he was the first one I would have named in the team this year. His average increased by over a point in 2017 and he looked a far better rider both home and away.

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15 hours ago, Halifaxtiger said:

While I very much see your point here, you have to ask why 'foreign dross' is preferred to British riders.

When it comes to low average riders it will often be because they can bring in a foreign lad and he will become an asset while a British lad will already be signed to another club. They may well not have to pay a loan fee on a British youngster if he is unproven but they stand to gain nothing in the long term.

They can bring in a youngster from abroad on a recommendation , pay whatever the current rate is that they have to towards his living costs, find him a place to live and use of a workshop and then he is worth giving time to develop in their team because if he does OK he will eventually make them some money. It makes much more sense to give him a good amount of time to learn the trade at his home track.

Give a British lad who is somebody else's asset a team place and if he doesn't score in the first couple of meetings you can replace him with somebody else.

The asset system while I can see why Promoters in general support it to my way of thinking is massively detrimental to the future of the sport in this country.

Shame about Joe's retirement as he has the potential to be a good, long term servant to a club who the fans would like.

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3 minutes ago, Vince said:

When it comes to low average riders it will often be because they can bring in a foreign lad and he will become an asset while a British lad will already be signed to another club. They may well not have to pay a loan fee on a British youngster if he is unproven but they stand to gain nothing in the long term.

Isn't it a lot simpler than that? Speedway is a numbers game. The team who's riders make the biggest improvements will be the most successful. A untried foreigner is likely to have a biggest swing in their average (up or down) than a British rider who have gained a real average from a whole season.

Therefore clubs are happy to take a punt, as that is the best way of delivering on track success?

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For me this should be a watershed moment for people who ru(i)n our great sport.

When a young British talent who 2 seasons ago could be seen whacking round the NSS beating all manor of genuine international level riders on sky sports, who ups his average and is able to compete at Elite level has to miss a season due to his high average, punishing the lad for developing and improving. And a season later faced with the same fate decides to hang up his boots. Something is seriously amiss with the way the sport is being run.

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1 hour ago, Halifaxtiger said:

Personally, I think your arguments in favour of employing British riders are more persuasive - and this isn't just about Mason Campton.

What other sub 7 point Aussies keep getting jobs in the UK? Picking is about to have a second season at Edinburgh but a few others have been kicked out. What makes Campton a special case? Is he sleeping with someone at immigration?

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3 hours ago, Vince said:

When it comes to low average riders it will often be because they can bring in a foreign lad and he will become an asset while a British lad will already be signed to another club. They may well not have to pay a loan fee on a British youngster if he is unproven but they stand to gain nothing in the long term.

They can bring in a youngster from abroad on a recommendation , pay whatever the current rate is that they have to towards his living costs, find him a place to live and use of a workshop and then he is worth giving time to develop in their team because if he does OK he will eventually make them some money. It makes much more sense to give him a good amount of time to learn the trade at his home track.

Give a British lad who is somebody else's asset a team place and if he doesn't score in the first couple of meetings you can replace him with somebody else.

The asset system while I can see why Promoters in general support it to my way of thinking is massively detrimental to the future of the sport in this country.

Shame about Joe's retirement as he has the potential to be a good, long term servant to a club who the fans would like.

In the SS 30/12, there is a piece on (I think) Redcar and it explains how the asset system is being actively used to deliver the team's 'bond' to the BSPA..

Hence riders yet to ride here are having their averages lowered to make them more attractive to be signed...

Teams are/were being encouraged/made to, sign more assets so presumably as assets they can be sold/loaned in the case of the club going bust through the season?

Hello more East and Western European journeymen with more than the odd Scandinavian thrown in...

Sign five and who knows one may be worth the gamble?

Edited by mikebv

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1 hour ago, SCB said:

What other sub 7 point Aussies keep getting jobs in the UK? Picking is about to have a second season at Edinburgh but a few others have been kicked out. What makes Campton a special case? Is he sleeping with someone at immigration?

I was wondering the same towards the end of this last season, when we knew we were losing Ryan Douglas. He was signed on a 3 year visa giving him time to adjust to a new country, lifestyle riding differing tracks. He had been hampered by injuries & confidence issues but trying the GTR from the start of the season left him with a mountain to climb.

How many other Aussies are on long term visa's as I expect Campton to be one of them. I did note down that there were over a dozen that had not reached a 7point average.

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4 hours ago, Halifaxtiger said:

 

To me, the problem is less about the asset system and more about doubling up. Restrict the number of riders that can do so and its likely that both Jacobs and Ellis Perks would have found at least one team place.

 

But isn't Jacobs retiring because he can't get team places in BOTH leagues?

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4 hours ago, SCB said:

What other sub 7 point Aussies keep getting jobs in the UK? Picking is about to have a second season at Edinburgh but a few others have been kicked out. What makes Campton a special case? Is he sleeping with someone at immigration?

It isn't just about Aussies, though, is it ? Its 'foreign dross' , not 'Aussie dross'.  If you count up the numbers, I think there are about a dozen others who have been here for a couple of seasons at least and are still under 7 - Cameron Heeps, for example, will be starting his 8th consecutive season in British Speedway in 2018 and he's still under 7.00.

 

2 hours ago, BWitcher said:

But isn't Jacobs retiring because he can't get team places in BOTH leagues?

Yes, that's what he has said - although whether its a reasonable expectation for a rider of Jacobs age and ability to get a doubling up role is questionable.

Perhaps Perks would be a better example. He can't get a  place anywhere.

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12 minutes ago, Halifaxtiger said:

It isn't just about Aussies, though, is it ? Its 'foreign dross' , not 'Aussie dross'.  If you count up the numbers, I think there are about a dozen others who have been here for a couple of seasons at least and are still under 7 - Cameron Heeps, for example, will be starting his 8th consecutive season in British Speedway in 2018 and he's still under 7.00.

Of course it’s about Aussies (Russians, Argentinians and Americans) because they need work permits. Sadly we can’t do anything about dross like Jan Graversen and Rafal Konopka.

Cameron Heeps is British. Or at least British parents or something. He come in a 3 point average. Again, not a lot that can be done about him.

It’s sickening that as a sport we’re insentivizing the signing of foreigners. That’s actually illegal. Yet the sport is doing it and two promoters have put out press releasing saying as much. Do it the other way around and people cry racist and point it that’s illegal but here we are lowering the assessed average figure to encourage more foreigners ffs! I just don’t get how anyone can defend and justify that but here we have a thread with people going it and a sport with promoters actively doing it.

Give it a few years when all British riders have been forced out and the same promoters will be asking why the sport is dead in this county.

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20 minutes ago, SCB said:

Of course it’s about Aussies (Russians, Argentinians and Americans) because they need work permits. Sadly we can’t do anything about dross like Jan Graversen and Rafal Konopka.

Cameron Heeps is British. Or at least British parents or something. He come in a 3 point average. Again, not a lot that can be done about him.

It’s sickening that as a sport we’re insentivizing the signing of foreigners. That’s actually illegal. Yet the sport is doing it and two promoters have put out press releasing saying as much. Do it the other way around and people cry racist and point it that’s illegal but here we are lowering the assessed average figure to encourage more foreigners ffs! I just don’t get how anyone can defend and justify that but here we have a thread with people going it and a sport with promoters actively doing it.

Give it a few years when all British riders have been forced out and the same promoters will be asking why the sport is dead in this county.

Of course we do can  something about them.  Whether they need work permits or not, no club is forced to sign them instead of a British rider.

Cameron Heeps requires a work permit and does not have British parents. The only reason he got a 3.00 average was one of the NL's notorious bent deals involving the BSPA, Mildenhall, Ipswich & Rye House.

I completely agree about putting British lads first. The question is why is it the case that so many clubs do not do that (and I genuinely don't know the answer) ? 

I can see why Workington are keeping Campton this season but if you had asked me at the beginning of 2017 you might have got a very different answer.

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18 minutes ago, Halifaxtiger said:

Of course we do can  something about them.  Whether they need work permits or not, no club is forced to sign them instead of a British rider.

Cameron Heeps requires a work permit and does not have British parents. The only reason he got a 3.00 average was one of the NL's notorious bent deals involving the BSPA, Mildenhall, Ipswich & Rye House.

I completely agree about putting British lads first. The question is why is it the case that so many clubs do not do that (and I genuinely don't know the answer) ? 

I can see why Workington are keeping Campton this season but if you had asked me at the beginning of 2017 you might have got a very different answer.

Cameron Heeps does not require a visa

He has patriality via family heritage

I think the Kurtz bros along with some others (Morris?) have similar

Agree with you re Campton. He had not impressed me at all before last season but in 2017 upped his game significantly

What that does show is that when a rider is given time they can improve and become solid team members at the very least.

Unfortunately such opportunities are not as often afforded to the British riders in the same way as those from abroad

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These young brits without a team place i wonder how much comes down to pay demands ? i know from a very good source there was a reserve in the championship last season on a £300 wage before any points scored and finished with just over a 2 point average .

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On 1/7/2018 at 8:26 PM, soupy said:

Some riders need time to settle in and most clubs can not afford the luxury of doing it as they want results asap.

that's true . and if your'e a foreigner you will get the time , if you're British you won't  , 

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2 hours ago, highside said:

These young brits without a team place i wonder how much comes down to pay demands ? i know from a very good source there was a reserve in the championship last season on a £300 wage before any points scored and finished with just over a 2 point average .

Davey in the SS says having a place in Swindon and Birmingham he can affordto be a  full time speedway rider.Tells all really.

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