World Championship Pairs

[The Little Un 47]

7 hours ago, nw42 said:

Agreed it was a good post but I think he's referring to the future when Tai becomes Britain's greatest ever,  given his previous successes and time on his side he probably will achieve the status, here's hoping because it will only benefit British speedway.

 

Meanwhile I think Peter Collins stands out as the greatest British rider.

Neither were or are so far better than Peter Craven. So far by far the best rider Britain has ever had.

[The Little Un 47]

6 hours ago, stewmac said:

Poles have been watching the racing from Wroclaw all season on TV and in person. The stadium is full or almost full every league match. It's been quite outstanding this year. Why would it have been any different for this? The stadium was hardly half full either day, suggesting that even though they knew the racing would be great, they didn't want the format. I don't see how that will change....

Is that a joke, I have watched many Polish league matches where the stadiums were less than half full.

[stevebrum 6,820]

9 hours ago, adonis said:

does it automatically make you a Tai hater if you  dont have your tongue down the back of his trousers , regardless of your opinion on some of his actions . if so put me on the list of tai haters 

No it doesn’t, but some only attack him no matter what he does. If you fit into that camp then the cap fits, so to speak.

i doubt you have a good word to say about Tai anyway so if that makes you a Tai hater then you have outed yourself.

how anyone’s can hate on him after that virtual single handed performance of keeping us at the top of the leader board. Still, each to their own. Haters gotta hate I guess.

8 hours ago, nw42 said:

I think you're misreading the mood here, virtually every poster has said how fantastic he has been all week, and he has, he's gone up a few notches in my estimation for his selfless riding all week.  He's been an absolute pleasure to watch, always looking for Lambert and only leaving him when at risk of losing the win, Rob Lambert must have learned so much from him this week, amazing throttle control.

That said, there are plenty of us who, having watched him shepherd Lambert all week, are left wondering why he opted to go after Laguta in the final when the only real chance of taking the title was to get Lambert ahead of Emil, after all he'd been doing that all week where possible.

One or 2 have called him selfish but the vast majority have had nothing but praise for him, it's only natural to wonder why he didn't consider mixing it with Emil.  Of course it's easy for us armchair experts to say he should have done it, doesn't mean we aren't proud of his efforts.

I’m not misreading any mood here. I caught up late on the meeting and thread and saw all the expected glowing reports of how magnificent Tai was. Then after the final race plenty jumped on board with the Tai is all self self, cost us the win blahdeblah. I think I captured the mood perfectly actually.

8 hours ago, one of clubs said:

There is no doubt the two Brits deserved to win the title, but the fact remains that they did not. I will give Tai credit for a great performance in the SON  and in his two World titles but to say he is on course to become the greatest ever is way off the mark. That accolade belongs to Peter Collins for his individual, team and pairs world championship honours.

It’s simpley not way off the mark at all.

PC rode in an era when GB ruled the world. So his team and country achievements were slightly easier because of this. No taking away his achievements in this of course.

Collins only won 1 world title, those are the facts. Tai has already won 2 and is looking good enough for a 3rd this year.

Woffy has virtually single handedly achieve Silver for GB in the World Cup and now the Pairs by scoring massive points to make up for the below standard of his fellow GB riders. An incredible achievement.

it is absolutely fair to suggest he is close to being our best ever British rider.

[stevebrum 6,820]

11 minutes ago, The Little Un said:

Neither were or are so far better than Peter Craven. So far by far the best rider Britain has ever had.

Completely subjective.

[The Little Un 47]

4 hours ago, Big Al said:

Presumably you are a former rider? Could you go through exactly how Tai Woffinden should have engineered the race so as to enable Lambert to pass Sayfutdinov, without undue risk to himself being passed by the Russian.

By the way I take no offence at your language.

It would have mattered little to the final result if Tai had been overtaken.

[tyler42 150]

12 minutes ago, The Little Un said:

Neither were or are so far better than Peter Craven. So far by far the best rider Britain has ever had.

 All three riders were from different eras. I am biased, because P.C was my idol, Peter Craven i never saw and as for Tai. Well his record is up there with the other two. In terms of World Championships, one better than the other two. Their wins were over 20 heats of racing, where one mistake and it was over. Tai's was over a season, where a bad meeting did not mean you still could not win it. So its all if's and but's I think you can't compare there achievements. Can we just say they were and Tai is still great riders and British!!.

 

b

[Aces51 2,778]

50 minutes ago, stevebrum said:

Completely subjective.

Those of us who have witnessed speedway from that era to the present day are better able to make a judgement. Peter Craven raced in an era when there was the big 5, Craven, Fundin, Moore, Briggs and Knutsson, who were all capable of winning the World Title and did so.  Peter was unfortunately killed when only 29 and I have no doubt would have added to his achievements had he lived longer. Tai is without doubt an outstanding rider as he proved again this weekend. Where he will eventually stand in the overall ratings has yet to be seen but at the moment the quality of opposition at the highest level is not where it was in the the Craven or Collins eras or indeed, in the days of Rickardsson and Crump. At the moment I rate both PC's more highly but that could change.

Edited June 10, 2018 by Aces51

[martinmauger 584]

Adding my 2p's worth: the competition went better than I thought, Polish crowds didn't necessarily agree, flippin' brilliant watching GB battle all the way to the very last race.  Agree it the final heat was more about who didn't finish last than who won the race, sadly some might say, but it was a pairs comp so probably 4, 3, 2, 0 scoring might have been better for the final heat, if not the entire compeition.  And I enjoyed the tension/ excitement of the 'absolutely, positively must get a result' so-called pressure heats, and only have the one Final.  We don't know the GB thoughts / tactics before the last Fnal 2 heat, but possibly riders aren't used to others slowing down in front these days to block and / or the charteristics of modern engines don't permit it safely.   We saw the Zagar / Manzares incedent and in Final 1 there was an almost a repeat with GB v Smolinski, we could debate forever.  I will say GB as a team rode the best they could and should be proud.  Rossiter did the right thing using Lambert as much as he did, while there was no guarrantee Cook would have done better, Rosco couldn't risk maybe using a heat to risk it.  He had 2 riders going good, so use them.  I don't buy '2nd is the first of the losers', you can't win all the time and 2nd is still very good': use the silver medal as motivation to turn it into gold next time.

Finally, Tai is obviously the more experienced at this level of the 3 GB riders, and it showed, and was on his own track for the Finals the others will no doubt learn from the SON, but whether some like him or not: he rode freakin' brilliant....

[nw42 2,048]

32 minutes ago, stevebrum said:

 

I’m not misreading any mood here. I caught up late on the meeting and thread and saw all the expected glowing reports of how magnificent Tai was. Then after the final race plenty jumped on board with the Tai is all self self, cost us the win blahdeblah. I think I captured the mood perfectly actually.

 

Plenty you say, I said a couple,  The mood wasn't all about Tai bashing, far from it, we just wondered why he hadn't helped Lambert, nothing more nothing less.

Like you said you caught up late, maybe your attention was drawn to the odd posters who had a go at Tai,  far in the minority.

 

[stevebrum 6,820]

7 minutes ago, Aces51 said:

Those of us who have witnessed speedway from that era to the present day are better able to make a judgement. Peter Craven raced in an era when there was the big 5, Craven, Fundin, Moore, Briggs and Knutson, who were all capable of winning the World Title and did so.  Peter was unfortunately killed when only 29 and I have no doubt would have added to his achievements had he lived longer. Tai is without doubt an outstanding rider as he proved again this weekend. Where he will eventually stand in the overall ratings has yet to be seen but at the moment the quality of opposition at the highest level is not where it was in the the Craven or Collins eras or indeed, in the days of Rickardsson and Crump. At the moment I rate both PC's more highly but that could change.

Ah, the old I was there so no better than you do argument.

what riders would, should, could have, achieved has no place then or today.  Riders and their history stand by what they achieve or achieved. I’ve seen plenty of riders from several eras.

Tai will rightly be judged when his career is over and what he has achieved. As it stands he is still in consideration to be the best British rider of any era. Achievements will help us make that judgement.

[PHILIPRISING 7,298]

5 minutes ago, martinmauger said:

Adding my 2p's worth: the competition went better than I thought, Polish crowds didn't necessarily agree, flippin' brilliant watching GB battle all the way to the very last race.  Agree it the final heat was more about who didn't finish last than who won the race, sadly some might say, but it was a pairs comp so probably 4, 3, 2, 0 scoring might have been better for the final heat, if not the entire compeition.  And I enjoyed the tension/ excitement of the 'absolutely, positively must get a result' so-called pressure heats, and only have the one Final.  We don't know the GB thoughts / tactics before the last Fnal 2 heat, but possibly riders aren't used to others slowing down in front these days to block and / or the charteristics of modern engines don't permit it safely.   We saw the Zagar / Manzares incedent and in Final 1 there was an almost a repeat with GB v Smolinski, we could debate forever.  I will say GB as a team rode the best they could and should be proud.  Rossiter did the right thing using Lambert as much as he did, while there was no guarrantee Cook would have done better, Rosco couldn't risk maybe using a heat to risk it.  He had 2 riders going good, so use them.  I don't buy '2nd is the first of the losers', you can't win all the time and 2nd is still very good': use the silver medal as motivation to turn it into gold next time.

Finally, Tai is obviously the more experienced at this level of the 3 GB riders, and it showed, and was on his own track for the Finals the others will no doubt learn from the SON, but whether some like him or not: he rode freakin' brilliant....

EFFECTIVELY it was 4-3-2-0 in the final ... 2nd and 3rd trumped 1st

[The Little Un 47]

29 minutes ago, tyler42 said:

 All three riders were from different eras. I am biased, because P.C was my idol, Peter Craven i never saw and as for Tai. Well his record is up there with the other two. In terms of World Championships, one better than the other two. Their wins were over 20 heats of racing, where one mistake and it was over. Tai's was over a season, where a bad meeting did not mean you still could not win it. So its all if's and but's I think you can't compare there achievements. Can we just say they were and Tai is still great riders and British!!.

 

 

Peter Craven won two world championship titles.

[stevebrum 6,820]

4 minutes ago, nw42 said:

Plenty you say, I said a couple,  The mood wasn't all about Tai bashing, far from it, we just wondered why he hadn't helped Lambert, nothing more nothing less.

Like you said you caught up late, maybe your attention was drawn to the odd posters who had a go at Tai,  far in the minority.

 

 Like I said reading it later on there was a definate switch of Tai is brilliant to Tai cost us the win. Plenty questioning his motives with the usual suspects hating. I read plenty of posts praising his efforts last night and today which is refreshing to see.

[The Little Un 47]

6 minutes ago, PHILIPRISING said:

EFFECTIVELY it was 4-3-2-0 in the final ... 2nd and 3rd trumped 1st

They should have had that scoring system for the whole of the tournament.

[The Little Un 47]

4 minutes ago, stevebrum said:

 Like I said reading it later on there was a definate switch of Tai is brilliant to Tai cost us the win. Plenty questioning his motives with the usual suspects hating. I read plenty of posts praising his efforts last night and today which is refreshing to see.

Tai was not the problem, the scoring system was all wrong. It should have been either 4-3-2-0 or 3-2-1-0 for the whole tournament. Arguably GB should have been credited one point in final race as that is what they lead Russia before the race-offs.