World Championship Pairs

[Humphrey Appleby 13,938]

Just now, LesR said:

It was reported that Poland were only selling 2 day tickets. Maybe the Polish fans either couldn't afford that, or only wanted to see the main action of the second day and not be charged double to see one day!

Might have been a clash with a womens' basketball tournament... 

[stevebrum 6,820]

1 hour ago, Aces51 said:

You are in danger of falling into the same trap as SteveBrum.

Records don't tell you anything like the whole story. Just to give a few examples, Peter Collins has far more World Championship medals than either Craven or Woffinden but you have to take into account that England were the best in the world during much of his era. As a result he was advantaged by being a member of World Cup and Pairs winning teams. There was no World Cup or Pairs to win during Craven's career and Woffinden hasn't had the quality of team mates that Collins had.  The British Championship was first held in 1961 so Peter Craven didn't have an opportunity to win it during most of his career. He did win it in 1962 and 63, the year he died and remember that at that time Australian and New Zealand riders, like Briggs and Moore, also took part so it was more difficult to win than in recent times. I also previously touched on the better quality of riders during the Craven and Collins eras as compared to now, which made it more difficult to win a title.

I've not fallen into any trap,  I've already said that I don't mean to discredit the ability of Craven. I'm fully aware of his history and standing within the sport. I can't remember where he came in the Speedway Star rider of the millennium. I'd imagine he was pretty high up. Certainly a good idea where he was ranked by all speedway fans of all ages.

Of course you still have to measure that against what any rider achieves in the history books. 

It would be foolhardy of  anyone to suggest that if woffy was to add another one or two world titles to his name that he still wouldn't be a worthy candidate of being one of our all time greats.

[Hamish McRaker 601]

8 hours ago, Arson fire said:

Yes i do actually... but to suggest Tai was “ effectively sending a message to Lambert and British speedway” is quite frankly pathetic

I wasn't.

Anyway, what nobody knows, is what if any orders the riders had been given. Maybe the orders were for them both to just focus on getting the best possible race placing and forget about any jiggery pokery. In which case Tai was just doing what he'd been told to do. Wouldn't mind seeing the race again, but I don't recall Tai looking around to see where Robert was after the first lap - but am far from certain hence need to see it again. Who knows what was said and agreed before the race?

[Pinny 2,536]

On 6/9/2018 at 7:20 PM, adonis said:

ooh  ! lets give the grey matter  a little exercise  shall we ?.  Lambert is how old ? .errrm I think he's 20 , well my grey cells are telling me that he fits nicely into the category of naming a reserve under 21 . unlike either of the other 2 selected riders , Most likely why he was named by Rossiter as the reserve  instead of the main team . I better have a lie down now  as that took some serious thinking to work out . 

 Behave yourself you clown. 

Lamberts the top EL rider this season so including him as just as a reserve was an insult, he should of been in the main team from the get go with Bewley as reserve. 

Did you understand that or do you need it spelt out better for you as I have noticed on some of your previous posts you seem a bit thick between the ears?

[chunky 6,086]

6 hours ago, Aces51 said:

You are in danger of falling into the same trap as SteveBrum.

Records don't tell you anything like the whole story. Just to give a few examples, Peter Collins has far more World Championship medals than either Craven or Woffinden but you have to take into account that England were the best in the world during much of his era. As a result he was advantaged by being a member of World Cup and Pairs winning teams. There was no World Cup or Pairs to win during Craven's career and Woffinden hasn't had the quality of team mates that Collins had.  The British Championship was first held in 1961 so Peter Craven didn't have an opportunity to win it during most of his career. He did win it in 1962 and 63, the year he died and remember that at that time Australian and New Zealand riders, like Briggs and Moore, also took part so it was more difficult to win than in recent times. I also previously touched on the better quality of riders during the Craven and Collins eras as compared to now, which made it more difficult to win a title.

Let's look at it a little closer - and this is in no way any attempt to discredit Peter Collins...

It was mentioned that the England team of Collins' day was much stronger, but that is only a very small part of it. Yes, to win three successive team golds was a great achievement, and to score three maximums even greater - particularly in three different countries. However, look at the opposition...

In those three finals, GB/England would have probably won the golds WITHOUT PC in the team - certainly in '74 and '75. How many riders of a comparable standard did PC have to face in those meetings? ONE - Michanek. Maybe you could add Sjosten in '74...

So, as great a rider as PC was, and as many medals as he won, I really don't think that these events carry any weight as far as using them to substantiate his claims as the GOAT against riders like Craven and Woffinden.

Also, as far as the one-offs against GP's as far as difficulty is irrelevant, as although one bad ride could cost you, the exact same situation applied to everybody else in each respective championship. Every year, the World Final was allegedly "devalued" because of riders who didn't make it to the final. And stating that you can get away with bad meetings in the GP's doesn't necessarily hold any water, because everybody is riding under the same rules. If, at the end of the season, the GP's are decided by, say, 20 points or less, that is ONE meeting.

In 2000, Rickardsson had ONE bad meeting, and he finished third, seven points behind Loram. In 1996, Nielsen had a bad meeting, and lost the title by two points. Yes, one bad meeting can certainly cost you. Still, it is the same for everyone, so there is no advantage or disadvantage for anyone.

What it comes down to is the fact that you can't say that one-off World Finals were easier or more difficult than the GP's, as they are very different systems. Particularly in the 1980' s, all you had to do was finish in the Top 8, Top 10, or even Top 11 of World Championship meetings to qualify for the next round! Four or five average performances, and one good night, and hey, you could be World Champ!

Steve

[stewmac 468]

8 hours ago, adonis said:

Is league racing cheaper ? perhaps if it was more expensive that's why they stayed away ,  £25 at belle vue  knocked a good few off the gate .

Yes. Much cheaper. Typical Extraliga entry prices are around 45 - 50zl - which is around £10.

[g13webb 4,254]

9 hours ago, James Carter said:

Just caught up with all the action. 142 pages of comments so far... that's my day at work sorted !

Woffinden was just incredible over two days. People should just relax with how good he is in the grander scheme of things and just enjoy watching a sensational rider.  It reminds me a lot of Loram back in 2000 when he was in a rich vein of form and you just knew that even if he was last out of the gate he would still come through for the win. Incredible stuff

I just dont get 4320 scoring. Surely riders going for the win creates much better racing and just feels like it should be the correct way to run race off.  Bitter.. maybe a little  but the Russians rode great as well (apart from when they had some sort of brain fade and through Gleb in?!)

Wroclaw should be giving a big F.O tablet from hosting as the crowd was pathetic.  

 

This was suppose to be a Pairs tournament where team riding was to be rewarded.    The 4320,  scoring would have encouraged teams to  ride as pairs, knowing 2nd and 3rd would be more beneficial, than just the winning of the races..     As it was with the 3210, all teams knew when you won the race you were rewarded the same as those who team rode behind you,  so in affect  it contradicted the purpose of the tournament.            ( it was said you got a bonus point, but that only came in play if the scores were level at the end).  

It is not possible to recalculate the actual scores using the 4320 format,    because it would have put a whole new emphasis on the riding behaviour of the riders,  knowing the advantages gained through team riding was greater than just winning.     As with so many things I just feel it wasn't thought through properly... 

NB.    I have been fortunate to witness most of the great riders  mentioned on here  when compering them to Woffy.    My personal favourite was Michael Lee,  I loved Ove Fundin, adored Ivan Mauger, Barry Briggs and Rickardsson were out of this world,    but what Woffy done this last week was equal to any of those great riders....   Pure Class....

[RobMcCaffery 2,752]

For an event that was to supply and celebrate team riding there were a heck of a lot of 4-2s. Look at the points charts and you'll see a continuous thread. Rider number one scores high double figures, rider 2 about half a dozen at best. Okay there were exceptions but only Russia and Poland had two top GP riders. The balance of the rest of the pairings was much more lopsided and away from the hype many races were far more ordinary than people's short term memories suggest. Yes there were some great races. Yes Britain almost did and certainly deserved to win. 

Ironically the best team racing over the four meetings came from  the British pair. Woffinden's rewards for probably his most impressive and mature display to date? 

Top scorer. Team top scorers. Winner of the grand final. No gold medal. Superb reward eh? 

We never had this pious "we must celebrate and encourage team racing" waffle in the days of the World Pairs, perhaps because it was so commonplace in the leagues. The Pairs was just another FIM event with two riders per 'team'. I suppose that's why it died.

The worshipping on the altar of team riding came with the NL Pairs and the 4-3-2-0 scoring. It was all a case of trying to come up with a pairs meeting that people would actually pay to watch. It was about money, not high principles. Bear in mind I did have a certain involvement with the NL in the mid-80s....

Had it not been for Woffinden I suggest most would be rightly calling for a (jokerless)  SWC return. Tai saved the event but I doubt whether the all-important Poles share that view. In life there is right and wrong. In sport they are both overruled by winning ;-)

I think countries like Slovenia are much more impressed with Matej Zagar's performances in the SGP than this. 

The SWC is NOT always the same teams. Latvia proved that. There are six top nations chasing four places annually. That makes it competitive No Poland don't win every year.

I do wonder if the SON or the next version of it (son of SON?) is a nice cheap event, using plenty of cheap riders in the qualifiers, supporting the GP stars, sorry nobly empowering the minor nations.?

Over the weekend I was accused of all kinds of rubbish over my views on this event. To be honest it comes with the territory. I don't see speedway in the same limited ways as many here. I may be right and often know I'm wrong afterwards. But I try, for the best reasons, my sport not my ego. I had my brief brush with minor fame years back. Believe me it's not what it's cracked up to be. In later  years I was asked by a magazine editor to contribute. "You'll get your name in print! I've been chuckling over that one for years now.

"Oh he's just being nasty"

No I'm not, I'm offering my own version of insight and trying to make people think, which is a petty thankless job in this forum.

Anyway over to the usual snipers. Go ahead. I'll be elsewhere doing something far more worthwhile and it'll stop you spitting your venom at those who care. 

 

EDIT and the prize for the most predicted first response goes to nw42. Glad to give your life a sense of meaning on a Monday morning. He/she/it's on block so I'll be worrying all day over what he/she/it said. .... Right, I'm over it ;-) . Fifteen seconds! I'm getting slow :-( Must book myself into SCB's Swiss clinic. 

Have fun boys and girls, be excellent to each other and party on dudes and please keep banging the rocks together. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 11, 2018 by RobMcCaffery

[nw42 2,048]

4 minutes ago, RobMcCaffery said:

For an event that was to supply and celebrate team riding there were a heck of a lot of 4-2s. Look at the points charts and you'll see a continuous thread. Rider number one scores high double figures, rider 2 about half a dozen at best. Okay there were exceptions but only Russia and Poland had two top GP riders. The balance of the rest of the pairings was much more lopsided and away from the hype many races were far more ordinary than people's short term memories suggest. Yes there were some great races. Yes Britain almost did and certainly deserve;d. 

Ironically the best team racing over the four meetings came from  the British pair. Woffinden's rewards for probably his most impressive and mature display to date? 

Top scorer. Team top scorers. Winner of the grand final. No gold medal. Superb reward eh? 

We never had this pious "we must celebrate and encourage team racing" waffle in the days of the World Pairs, perhaps because it was so commonplace in the leagues. The Pairs was just another FIM event with two riders per 'team'. I suppose that's why it died.

The worshipping on the altar of team riding came with the NL Pairs and the 4-3-2-0 scoring. It was all a case of trying to come up with a pairs meeting that people would actually pay to watch. It was about money, not high principles. Bear in mind I did have a certain involvement with the NL in the mid-80s....

Had it not been for Woffinden I suggest most would be rightly calling for a (jokerless)  SWC return. Tai saved the event but I doubt whether the all-important Poles have a different view.

I think countries like Slovenia are much more impressed with Matej Zagar's performances in the SGP than this. 

The SWC is NOT always the same teams. Latvia proved that. There are six top nations chasing four places annually. That makes it competitive No Poland don't win every year.

I do wonder if the SON or the next version of it (son of SON?) is a nice cheap event, using plenty of cheap riders, sorry nobly empowering the minor nations.?

Over the weekend I was accused of all kinds of rubbish over my views on this event. To be honest it comes with the territory. I don't see speedway in the same limited ways as many here. 

"Oh he's just being nasty"

No I'm not, I'm offering my own version of insight and trying to make people think, which is a petty thankless job in this forum.

Anyway over to the usual snipers. Go ahead. I'll be elsewhere doing something far more worthwhile. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You weren't accused of all sorts at all, just the continuous insulting people and their intelligence.  Your opinions on speedway are usually worth reading but your attitude stinks.

[PHILIPRISING 7,298]

9 hours ago, Humphrey Appleby said:

Might have been a clash with a womens' basketball tournament... 

YOU are so funny I'm splitting.my sides

[racers and royals 8,712]

The most poignant part of the whole competition i thought was Emil`s interview on the winners podium( doesn`t he speak very good English) thanking the team`s Polish sponsors, and  him meaning without them Russia wouldn`t have been able to take part. I have been banging on about this for some time that the prize money for the event is pathetic - Russia as winners won about £15000( converted from US dollars) and they had to pay for hotels for about 12 persons(min) for lets say 3 nights plus travel and associated costs for 3 meetings. No wonder we are down to an event with 2 senior riders per team and an U21 rider at reserve who i suggest will not get anything like a third of what`s left to pay the riders. obviously with the prize money decreasing down the order most teams will i suggest be out of pocket come the end of the week !!!!!!!

i listed prize money on page 14 of this thread.

Edited June 11, 2018 by racers and royals

[PHILIPRISING 7,298]

42 minutes ago, racers and royals said:

The most poignant part of the whole competition i thought was Emil`s interview on the winners podium( doesn`t he speak very good English) thanking the team`s Polish sponsors, and  him meaning without them Russia wouldn`t have been able to take part. I have been banging on about this for some time that the prize money for the event is pathetic - Russia as winners won about £15000( converted from US dollars) and they had to pay for hotels for about 12 persons(min) for lets say 3 nights plus travel and associated costs for 3 meetings. No wonder we are down to an event with 2 senior riders per team and an U21 rider at reserve who i suggest will not get anything like a third of what`s left to pay the riders. obviously with the prize money decreasing down the order most teams will i suggest be out of pocket come the end of the week !!!!!!!

i listed prize money on page 14 of this thread.

PROBLEM for the Russian team is a lack of support from their own Federation.

[Daniel Smith 5,645]

8 hours ago, stevebrum said:

I've not fallen into any trap,  I've already said that I don't mean to discredit the ability of Craven. I'm fully aware of his history and standing within the sport. I can't remember where he came in the Speedway Star rider of the millennium. I'd imagine he was pretty high up. Certainly a good idea where he was ranked by all speedway fans of all ages.

Of course you still have to measure that against what any rider achieves in the history books. 

It would be foolhardy of  anyone to suggest that if woffy was to add another one or two world titles to his name that he still wouldn't be a worthy candidate of being one of our all time greats.

Doesn't the best rider just come down to opinion.

Belle Vue fans will say Collins, King's Lynn fans are likely to say Lee, Wolves fans say Woffinden etc etc.

For me I can't compare riders from many year gone by as I've never seen or remember them riding.

Certainly since I've started watching Speedway (1989) Tai Woffinden by far is the greatest ever British rider of all time. That's my opinion, it can't be right or wrong, it's just an opinion 

[OveFundinFan 4,137]

That about sums it up Daniel....its all about opinions, and not just re PC, PC, TW, its about mostly everything discussed on this forum, indeed any forum. Its a pity people cannot respect others opinion - discuss it yes,  but soon after (or sometimes sooner then soon after) the abuse starts. Shame really, maybe turns a lot of potential posters off.  Just my opinion 

[PHILIPRISING 7,298]

HAVE heard from what I consider to be a very reliable source in Poland this morning that there was a concerted campaign in the media, on websites and from team manager Marek Cieslak for Polish fans to boycott the event in protest at what they perceived to be attempts by the FIM to stop Poland from winning by changing the format of the SWC to the SON.