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1 hour ago, moxey63 said:

Personally, I have long since rubbished the idea that racing was better in the 70s. Any lack of good racing though was often made up for in characters, many star names, rider styles, having your riders and knowing they were yours, and often the tricky tracks made it appear that races were unpredictable.

Oh, and almost forgot, the number of fans who gathered on the terraces back then probably felt the same, many, like yours truly, who is bored stiff with what's on offer today.

   

Some fair points here. 

As I've explained previously, two main reasons for this.

One: Size of the league. The bigger the league, the more 'heat leaders' there are.

Two: Heat format. Back in the 70's and early 80's the big guns didn't meet that often. That meant they lost less, their averages were higher and there were far more of them with that 'superstar' appeal. I'm not knocking that, it's a good thing and makes it easy to promote. Although would I advocate a switch back to a 13 heat format and the big guns racing each other less, not sure I would, that wouldn't improve the racing either. 

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21 minutes ago, BWitcher said:

Greatly improves the event. A last heat decider, whether it's for the match, or an extra pt is always more exciting than a meaningless one, regardless of the action on the track.

 

Yes I agree.

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14 hours ago, BWitcher said:

Some fair points here. 

As I've explained previously, two main reasons for this.

One: Size of the league. The bigger the league, the more 'heat leaders' there are.

Two: Heat format. Back in the 70's and early 80's the big guns didn't meet that often. That meant they lost less, their averages were higher and there were far more of them with that 'superstar' appeal. I'm not knocking that, it's a good thing and makes it easy to promote. Although would I advocate a switch back to a 13 heat format and the big guns racing each other less, not sure I would, that wouldn't improve the racing either. 

...however there were heat leaders back in the seventies and eighties who carried healthy averages (Ashby, Simmons, Morton, Boulger, Lovaas, Davis, Schwartz, Sanders, Autrey etc etc) who had to meet the opposite number one's at least on two occasions as well as opposing heat leaders and later became number one's in their own right thru' varying circumstances or, indeed, some would have been regarding as genuine number one's if they had ridden at another club during that era.

Peter Collins and Erik Gundersen, for example, would rarely appear as their club's number one choosing to ride further down the order. Ivan Mauger, for tactical purposes, would often ride at number four away from home, thereby again, meeting the opposing number one twice in programmed rides.

Edited by steve roberts

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2 hours ago, steve roberts said:

...however there were heat leaders back in the seventies and eighties who carried healthy averages (Ashby, Simmons, Morton, Boulger, Lovaas, Davis, Schwartz, Sanders, Autrey etc etc) who had to meet the opposite number one's at least on two occasions as well as opposing heat leaders and later became number one's in their own right thru' varying circumstances or, indeed, some would have been regarding as genuine number one's if they had ridden at another club during that era.

Peter Collins and Erik Gundersen, for example, would rarely appear as their club's number one choosing to ride further down the order. Ivan Mauger, for tactical purposes, would often ride at number four away from home, thereby again, meeting the opposing number one twice in programmed rides.

As already explained, they had healthy averages because there were more teams., bonus pts were included and the bottom end of sides was poor.

This is so easily evidenced when the leagues merged in 1995. Top flight riders who averaged around 6 suddenly jumped to 8.5-9pt riders. Now imagine they had ridden in a league of that size all their careers, they'd be looked back on as near 'stars'. As it is, they didn't, so they are looked back on as middle of the road journeyman. Same rider, same ability.

Edited by BWitcher

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27 minutes ago, BWitcher said:

As already explained, they had healthy averages because there were more teams., bonus pts were included and the bottom end of sides was poor.

This is so easily evidenced when the leagues merged in 1995. Top flight riders who averaged around 6 suddenly jumped to 8.5-9pt riders. Now imagine they had ridden in a league of that size all their careers, they'd be looked back on as near 'stars'. As it is, they didn't, so they are looked back on as middle of the road journeyman. Same rider, same ability.

I swear all promoters have to do is multiply a riders one heat average by 5 and not 4 and suddenly speedway fans of yesteryear will think todays riders are better and more amazing. It will fix everything. Little Johnny can't wait to see Jason Doyle now he's an 11.8 rider and not a 9.5 rider. I'm only amazed more people didnt attend in the first few meeting last season when we had a 50 point limit and we had a few riders on 11+ averages!

WOW, glory days indeed, March 2017! Look at the averages and tell me I'm wrong!

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17 minutes ago, SCB said:

I swear all promoters have to do is multiply a riders one heat average by 5 and not 4 and suddenly speedway fans of yesteryear will think todays riders are better and more amazing. It will fix everything.

3

Why not? Seems many are fooled, for example, at extra points being given for bigger wins, as it adds to the excitement in usually meaningless matches. However, it's smoke and mirrors and does nothing for the final table. It was the same with the aggregate bonus points we had for 20 years.

Edited by moxey63

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Take heat 15 out of the averages and you'd get higher top-end averages and, possibly, more representative ones too.

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On the other hand, has the constantly weakening of our leagues helped to make heat leaders out of riders that in 2017 that would have been reserves a few decades ago? Look at the strength (or weakness) of many sides from last year, and ask yourself has a certain rider improved that much... or is it because the league is totally diluted? Strongs sides of past years would severely bruise the top teams of the current day.

Edited by moxey63
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6 hours ago, moxey63 said:

On the other hand, has the constantly weakening of our leagues helped to make heat leaders out of riders that in 2017 that would have been reserves a few decades ago? Look at the strength (or weakness) of many sides from last year, and ask yourself has a certain rider improved that much... or is it because the league is totally diluted? Strongs sides of past years would severely bruise the top teams of the current day.

...different eras with different criteria regarding team make-ups. With the introduction of varying points limits and later compulsory juniors plus two reserve races during one particular period  helped to distort averages over a given period.

 

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23 hours ago, BWitcher said:

As already explained, they had healthy averages because there were more teams., bonus pts were included and the bottom end of sides was poor.

This is so easily evidenced when the leagues merged in 1995. Top flight riders who averaged around 6 suddenly jumped to 8.5-9pt riders. Now imagine they had ridden in a league of that size all their careers, they'd be looked back on as near 'stars'. As it is, they didn't, so they are looked back on as middle of the road journeyman. Same rider, same ability.

...which only tells part of the story..

Oxford's Marvyn Cox whose career was slowly going stale at Oxford which culminated in a poor 1989 season whereby he finished fifth in the team's averages (6.79) but having asked for a move he spent 1990 at Bradford where he registered an average of 8.62 he finished the season as their number one. The number of teams competing in the league during those seasons remained fixed at nine which obviously indicates that averages are not always what they seem but are sometimes influenced by riders getting a new lease of life and/or stepping out of the shadow of former team mates and/or taken on new challenges and/or responsibilities.

Mick Hines was another example when under the old Rider Control system was forced to leave Ipswich (1976) where he was ranked a second string in a team that had a strong heat leader trio and was allocated to Wimbledon where he rose to the challenge after the tragic death of Dons' number one  Tommy Jansson and increased his average by a good two points beating riders he often struggled against the previous season whilst a 'Witch'.

Personally I don't take too much notice of averages as they only tell part of a more complex picture especially when taken into account varying points limits and team structures as indicated in my previous post. It was often the case that riders with low averages but with 'potential' (sometimes!) managed to secure team spots because of the points limit in place at the expense of middle order averaged riders who were sometimes overlooked (Andy Grahame was a classic example at Cowley when he fell victim on two occasions) 

Very difficult to compare abilities and records and making comparisons from different eras when different criteria were in place as regards to team strengths and make up of same.

 

Edited by steve roberts

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Heat 15 - nominated riders heat - only really replaces the Rider of the Night Final in old second halves, and that used to be heat 20

We're shortchanged with 15 heat meetings these days

13 heats and proper second halves would be better value, and give a mix of team and individual racing

In the past, many would view the match from outside, then move inside for a drink and to watch the second half - oh, and the riders would join them at the completion of their rides (mind you, the riders were only going home afterwards, not flying off to some foreign land for tomorrow's booking!)

And of course, it wasn't on the tv, so to watch this wonderful sport, attendance at the track was the only way

Ah! The good old days (when SStar had a red cover, was in black and white, and cost less than 2/-)

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19 minutes ago, Midland Red said:

Heat 15 - nominated riders heat - only really replaces the Rider of the Night Final in old second halves, and that used to be heat 20

We're shortchanged with 15 heat meetings these days

13 heats and proper second halves would be better value, and give a mix of team and individual racing

In the past, many would view the match from outside, then move inside for a drink and to watch the second half - oh, and the riders would join them at the completion of their rides (mind you, the riders were only going home afterwards, not flying off to some foreign land for tomorrow's booking!)

And of course, it wasn't on the tv, so to watch this wonderful sport, attendance at the track was the only way

Ah! The good old days (when SStar had a red cover, was in black and white, and cost less than 2/-)

When Chris Shears was promoter at Cowley (1995) he introduced on one occasion an old second half which was met with enthusiasm by the appreciative Cowley regulars...only to have his wrist slapped by the BSPA in case it set a precedence!

Edited by steve roberts
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I thought this thread was about the TV deal, or suposidly lack of it...

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3 minutes ago, Starman2006 said:

I thought this thread was about the TV deal, or suposidly lack of it...

...got lost somewhere in the midst of time! The way of threads and how they deviate!

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3 minutes ago, steve roberts said:

...got lost somewhere in the midst of time! The way of threads and how they deviate!

So it seems mate..:lol:

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