No TV deal?

[Halifaxtiger 5,318]

21 hours ago, Grand Central said:

To be honest Halifax Tiger you are a very special case, yourself.

Living in Elland and attending 50% of Workington fixtures as well as several visits to Isle of Wight must make you the most fervant and most travelled Speedway Supporter here.
Which is brilliant and makes many of your posts informative to many.

From my own perspective, as a northern exile in the South East,  I can say with certainty that in 2017 (and previous years) I watched every League meeting on TV and didn't attend any meeting Live on those nights. And over the course of the last few seasons my general attendance has gone down as a direct result of having Speedway (incl GPs) on the TV.

Whilst I do not consider myself representative of all supporters I believe I may be a LITTLE more so than yourself who must be the UK's No1 attendee.
The various bizarre and irrational reasons that other fairweather fans use to make a choice NOT to attend must be quite impossible to imagine for the ultra-commited.
But we do. And I do think TV is a real factor that is quite a bit bigger than some here seem to be aware of.

 

If I am truly honest, I do have trouble grasping why people stay in to watch speedway on television when they can actually go.  

I remain of the belief that people such as yourself who do that are the exception and that the number lost for that reason is absolutely minimal when compared with those who have stopped attending because of poor value for money, and that on balance there is no question that television coverage is beneficial for the sport. As I have said, when people are asked on here why they no longer go - and sometimes I think they outnumber us that continue to attend - its extremely rare that they will say that that is because they make use of a BT/SKY package instead. Delays, guests, gaps between meetings, cheating, crap tracks all come much higher.

The other thing is it seems to me that you are a neutral and will therefore be more likely to stay in rather than attend. I am one too, but we constitute a very small proportion of the speedway paying public, with most watching their teams week in, week out. I would be very surprised if a Belle Vue fan, for example, would skip a home meeting simply to watch a Poole-Somerset match on the box. Its almost equally as unlikely that they would skip a Belle Vue meeting to stay at home for the same reason (which, currently, happens once a season). As I have made clear earlier, the biggest attendance I saw at the NSS last season was a televised match against Wolverhampton. Properly promoted and with a reduced entry fee, I suspect the gate was near double the average.

The GP's are different because they represent the pinnacle of the sport with its very best riders. Most of them are beyond the pocket of the average speedway fan, so they are far more likely to use the very decent coverage that we have. There will be a loss to teams that run against them but I refuse to believe that Workington are losing 300 a week as a result - with their gates, it would be more than noticeable if 300 were there one week and not the next.

[Rayleigh 362]

Football is awash with money mainly from the sky TV deal and the worldwide TV deal

Rugby League allowed TV to change the structure to Super League and are now building new stadiums from the bump up of money entering the game

Darts from a pub game to selling out arenas such as 02 mainly from the Premier League and other events all on TV

Cricket 20/20 specifically designed for yes you guessed it TV

 

But Speedway thinks TV is negative for it         "Lions led by Donkeys"

 

[Halifaxtiger 5,318]

18 hours ago, Starman2006 said:

Its down to the individual promoters to promote there club, Matt ford does it at poole, why cant others.

There was a time not too long ago when I would have disdained this view.

Having been to Isle of Wight and seen the methods used by the promotion there to attract new fans, I have completely reversed that position.

First of all, there is a massive effort to make sure people know they are there. Then when they get them to come, there is an equally massive effort to make sure they stay. 

Makes a significant and most welcome change from absolutely no effort at all in the first place and then a surly 'we are doing you a favour' attitude that is so prevalent amongst promoters across the country. 

Edited February 17, 2018 by Halifaxtiger

[steve roberts 9,242]

29 minutes ago, Rayleigh said:

Football is awash with money mainly from the sky TV deal and the worldwide TV deal

Rugby League allowed TV to change the structure to Super League and are now building new stadiums from the bump up of money entering the game

Darts from a pub game to selling out arenas such as 02 mainly from the Premier League and other events all on TV

Cricket 20/20 specifically designed for yes you guessed it TV

 

But Speedway thinks TV is negative for it         "Lions led by Donkeys"

 

...begs the question regarding where all the SKY money went that was reportedly/supposedly paid out over the last however many years? However the bottom line is although speedway appeared regularly on SKY (no idea what the viewing figures were at its height) it hasn't translated into 'bums on seats'  or raised the awareness of the sport at domestic level based on attendance figures, or lack of, at venues around the country.

[00000 1,279]

1 hour ago, steve roberts said:

...begs the question regarding where all the SKY money went that was reportedly/supposedly paid out over the last however many years? However the bottom line is although speedway appeared regularly on SKY (no idea what the viewing figures were at its height) it hasn't translated into 'bums on seats'  or raised the awareness of the sport at domestic level based on attendance figures, or lack of, at venues around the country.

Sky paid the promoters>>who gave it to the riders>>who gave it to the engine tuners.

[Starman2006 2,354]

2 hours ago, Halifaxtiger said:

There was a time not too long ago when I would have disdained this view.

Having been to Isle of Wight and seen the methods used by the promotion there to attract new fans, I have completely reversed that position.

First of all, there is a massive effort to make sure people know they are there. Then when they get them to come, there is an equally massive effort to make sure they stay. 

Makes a significant and most welcome change from absolutely no effort at all in the first place and then a surly 'we are doing you a favour' attitude that is so prevalent amongst promoters across the country. 

Good, and thank you. Thats how it should be. You have to dangle a carrot and make fans feel appreciated, the majority of riders will take time out to appease fans sign autographs and talk to fans, yes they have a job to do, and when they get in the zone thats when you leave them alone. But the promotions have a duty to make fans feel welcome, and thats how it should be. Today the carrot works..

[BUDGIE 35]

This is a very interesting debate, and for once very civil! I have always thought that TV affects the crowds at speedway meetings. Its an interesting debate that is for sure, I think back to the days when I attended Cradley every week but because of that  I also went to Birmingham and Wolves regularly ( and by that I mean probably 3  out of 4 meetings and indeed  the vast majority of Cradley away matches.) Once Cradley closed I just lost all interest in domestic speedway, went to a few matches in the junior league, but it didnt mean anything to me, and I just drifted away. Watch everything I can now on TV, but would I get up from my armchair, probably not as I dont have a team to support or a base. Would I get up from my armchair if no domestic speedway was available, again probably not but I guess I may think about it more. So my thinking on TV has changed somewhat and  perhaps the screening of domestic speedway doesnt affect the crowds of other tracks that much.  I am though convinced that if I had the choice of say Workington on a Saturday night or watching the world elite in an SGP, the SGP would win everytime. No disrespect intended to Workington of course, I really used to enjoy my trips there! The televising of SGPs is obviously not in  the control of UK promoters and it will now be an ever present problem, what is in the control is the televising of domestic speedway. I remember thinking at the launch of the SGP that my Saturday nights at Dudley Wood would change forever as they would be forced into alternate night racing, however other things happened and sadly that wasnt the issue at all with the troubles and eviction from  Dudley Wood!

[Grand Central 2,654]

7 hours ago, Halifaxtiger said:

If I am truly honest, I do have trouble grasping why people stay in to watch speedway on television when they can actually go.  

I remain of the belief that people such as yourself who do that are the exception and that the number lost for that reason is absolutely minimal when compared with those who have stopped attending because of poor value for money, and that on balance there is no question that television coverage is beneficial for the sport. As I have said, when people are asked on here why they no longer go - and sometimes I think they outnumber us that continue to attend - its extremely rare that they will say that that is because they make use of a BT/SKY package instead. Delays, guests, gaps between meetings, cheating, crap tracks all come much higher.

The other thing is it seems to me that you are a neutral and will therefore be more likely to stay in rather than attend. I am one too, but we constitute a very small proportion of the speedway paying public, with most watching their teams week in, week out. I would be very surprised if a Belle Vue fan, for example, would skip a home meeting simply to watch a Poole-Somerset match on the box. Its almost equally as unlikely that they would skip a Belle Vue meeting to stay at home for the same reason (which, currently, happens once a season). As I have made clear earlier, the biggest attendance I saw at the NSS last season was a televised match against Wolverhampton. Properly promoted and with a reduced entry fee, I suspect the gate was near double the average.

The GP's are different because they represent the pinnacle of the sport with its very best riders. Most of them are beyond the pocket of the average speedway fan, so they are far more likely to use the very decent coverage that we have. There will be a loss to teams that run against them but I refuse to believe that Workington are losing 300 a week as a result - with their gates, it would be more than noticeable if 300 were there one week and not the next.

You are right in so much of what you say. We just come to different conclusions on the effect Speedway on TV may have on attendance.

Yes I am a neutral in some respects because of where I live.  An Aces supporter in London is not ideal. But that has been the case since 1984 so it's nothing new.

In the last few of years i have attended around 10-15 UK meetings plus a couple of GP/SWC per annum and all have been a separate choice rather than ritual to a nearby hometrack. 

This is massively reduced from my high spot of the eighties and nineties when I averaged 80 plus meetings a year. The last time did over 50 a year must have been the early 2000s.

Many things have influenced my choice to attend (of course) from the weather, to Aces fixtures, to team absences, to changes of race nights, track closures and even marital status. As it always did back in the day.

But  I'm afraid that having the luxury of some TV coverage always being available within the next few days  has been the single biggest reason for making the choice to stay at home than anything else, when push comes to shove. Especially after i have a paid the monthly fee i feel 'justified' in making that choice to get my 'money's worth'.

Sundays watching Polish league matches online actually quite a factor too now.

There are only so many hours that one can devote to Speedway and with so much of that being 'used up' inside the home it is really just inevitable that would reduce the time devoted to live attendance. Isn't it?

I have no idea how representative this is of others. And I know It says some sad things about me. But it is the truth.

Edited February 17, 2018 by Grand Central

[RobMcCaffery 2,752]

11 hours ago, steve roberts said:

...during the days of 'Screensport' there was a highlights/news desk programme (fronted by Rob McCaffrey) which I used to enjoy and 'guest' riders would occasionally appear in the studio.

 

Thanks for remembering. It was a very long time ago. 

That show came about after we'd set up the deal to show a prerecorded match once a week. I offered to contribute speedway news to the station's news department (mainly ex-Piccadilly Radio journos who at least knew of Belle Vue) to be read by one of the presenters as part of their new bulletins.

I phoned in the first set to the programme controller, Chris Fear (ex-Westward TV and a speedway man) whose response was to invite me up to the studios the following Saturday to present the news myself, initially with him interviewing me then after a couple of weeks 'solo'. 

Resources were minimal - we couldn't even afford a shoestring. What we did have was the recording of the match to be shown the following night so we took a heat from that as a preview. The whole speedway project was initially run by K.M.Video on their own who recorded several matches for video each week, normally at places like Hackney, Wimbledon and Reading. At each meeting we would record interviews to insert into the weekly news review. We weren't allowed to show any action.

So we would only be able to show the one race and the few video companies also making speedway tapes at the time simply weren't producing material technically good enough to broadcast. Indeed KM's equipment wasn't up to the job and after the first match at Hackney an outside firm, Video Anglia was brought in to provide better, vision-mixed cameras working from an admittedly tiny 'scanner' truck (a Renault Trafic where I did the commentary  from the front passenger seat).

I usually managed to find a guest to help me through the Saturday half hour, starting with Chris Morton. 

So the format was one race,  a couple of interviews, possibly a guest, a comprehensive listing of fixtures for the night and week ahead. The rest was me, working from notes perched on my knee, with slide inserts to relieve the viewer's agony ;-) No, we couldn't run to autocue.

No, none exist as far as I can ascertain. We ran weekly through the main season and monthly through the winter so there were over thirty shows a year. We tried.

The only feedback we got from the BSPA was "Canterbury are complaining that you're hitting their crowd". Our programme was over by 6 every Saturday...

Depressingly it comes as no surprise that some BSPA members are still stupid enough to believe that TV isn't a help. After 30+ years you would hope they'd learned. 

People wonder why I get frustrated with certain people in speedway?  

 

 

. 

[mickthemuppet 976]

The attendances at the tracks have never gone up in all  the time there has been regular televised Speedway

[A ORLOV 8,628]

2 hours ago, mickthemuppet said:

The attendances at the tracks have never gone up in all  the time there has been regular televised Speedway

That is possibly because having seen a live meeting with all the delays etc they were put off, which is why a highlights prog would be a good option.   If the bspa get rid of all the delays and pointless restarts more people might return to the sport.

Edited February 17, 2018 by A ORLOV

[steve roberts 9,242]

27 minutes ago, A ORLOV said:

That is possibly because having seen a lie meeting with all the delays etc they were put off, which is why a highlights prog would be a good option.   If the bspa get rid of all the delays and pointless restarts more people might return to the sport.

...couldn't agree more!

[steve roberts 9,242]

48 minutes ago, RobMcCaffery said:

Thanks for remembering. It was a very long time ago. 

That show came about after we'd set up the deal to show a prerecorded match once a week. I offered to contribute speedway news to the station's news department (mainly ex-Piccadilly Radio journos who at least knew of Belle Vue) to be read by one of the presenters as part of their new bulletins.

I phoned in the first set to the programme controller, Chris Fear (ex-Westward TV and a speedway man) whose response was to invite me up to the studios the following Saturday to present the news myself, initially with him interviewing me then after a couple of weeks 'solo'. 

Resources were minimal - we couldn't even afford a shoestring. What we did have was the recording of the match to be shown the following night so we took a heat from that as a preview. The whole speedway project was initially run by K.M.Video on their own who recorded several matches for video each week, normally at places like Hackney, Wimbledon and Reading. At each meeting we would record interviews to insert into the weekly news review. We weren't allowed to show any action.

So we would only be able to show the one race and the few video companies also making speedway tapes at the time simply weren't producing material technically good enough to broadcast. Indeed KM's equipment wasn't up to the job and after the first match at Hackney an outside firm, Video Anglia was brought in to provide better, vision-mixed cameras working from an admittedly tiny 'scanner' truck (a Renault Trafic where I did the commentary  from the front passenger seat).

I usually managed to find a guest to help me through the Saturday half hour, starting with Chris Morton. 

So the format was one race,  a couple of interviews, possibly a guest, a comprehensive listing of fixtures for the night and week ahead. The rest was me, working from notes perched on my knee, with slide inserts to relieve the viewer's agony ;-) No, we couldn't run to autocue.

No, none exist as far as I can ascertain. We ran weekly through the main season and monthly through the winter so there were over thirty shows a year. We tried.

The only feedback we got from the BSPA was "Canterbury are complaining that you're hitting their crowd". Our programme was over by 6 every Saturday...

Depressingly it comes as no surprise that some BSPA members are still stupid enough to believe that TV isn't a help. After 30+ years you would hope they'd learned. 

People wonder why I get frustrated with certain people in speedway?  

 

 

. 

I used to look forward to Screensports 'Match of the Week'...Sundays evenings initially if I recall?

Living in Oxford we were fortunate in receiving cable (Swindon was another area) before it became nationwide and then of course satellite kicked in...something I've never subscribed to.

[RobMcCaffery 2,752]

4 hours ago, steve roberts said:

I used to look forward to Screensports 'Match of the Week'...Sundays evenings initially if I recall?

Living in Oxford we were fortunate in receiving cable (Swindon was another area) before it became nationwide and then of course satellite kicked in...something I've never subscribed to.

Thanks again Steve. It was scheduled for late on Sunday specifically so it didn't clash with any live speedway meetings. In those days the only Sunday evening track we had to consider was Boston who were normally finished by 9 pm, having a 6.45 start.

As you can see we did everything we could not to be a problem.

Yes Oxford was one of the areas covered. In those early days we were carried mainly on Rediffusion's 4-channel service which sadly only had patchy coverage over the country. The expected multi-channel cable systems of today were authorised in the 80s but mostly not built until the next decade, by which time Sky was dominant, Screensport had morphed into a European network, and I was long gone. 

[RobMcCaffery 2,752]

5 hours ago, mickthemuppet said:

The attendances at the tracks have never gone up in all  the time there has been regular televised Speedway

On the other hand how much lower would they have gone if not propped up by TV coverage? You can never know. The money earnt by the sport should have enabled it to invest in itself and thus attract new customers.

There were few sports that utterly wasted the opportunity and money but somehow ours managed to. 

5 hours ago, A ORLOV said:

That is possibly because having seen a live meeting with all the delays etc they were put off, which is why a highlights prog would be a good option.   If the bspa get rid of all the delays and pointless restarts more people might return to the sport.

No, the move for years now in sports TV has been away from highlights to live, full-match coverage. Why should be go in the other direction just because we can't run matches efficiently?

There is a real world out there and it seems it's not just the BSPA who are unaware. Study the sports TV schedules and see for yourselves how few sports have highlights shows only instead of full coverage. There's not many, and for a very good reason - people want live, full matches, as proved by Sky for nearly thirty years now.