Danger Ahead

[jenga 2,998]

8 hours ago, New era Panthers said:

With age of modern technology there is no excuse for this situation .   I still say it is a disgrace  it could have been faxed or one of several other means of communication. Shoddy is a polite way of describing it.

are they still using the fax thing in this day and age .

anyone could send a fax from this end . but you have to know that the .person who sent it was the correct person and not someone trying it on as being  the promoter .

 

but whats done is done .

[sparks123 147]

17 hours ago, The Third Man said:

Points limit is the same for all teams, all teams agreed to the points limit

Nichols and Kennett were not treated the same as other eiders of equal or even better ability

I don't see what there is to misunderstand about this

I have always been in favour of any British rider riding in both leagues in Britain if they want (more beneficial to team GB if Cookie is doubling up compared to Sam Masters for example).

I think that it's wrong that they are allowed to drop down when the majority of clubs have excluded them from their team plans (affected at least 3 team plans).

The riders should have been made available from the beginning of May when it was then a level playing field where any club could have signed the riders not just the clubs who haven't completed their teams.

[SPEEDY69 1,248]

22 hours ago, Argos said:

It’s so basic, All Speedway riders are Self Employed they agree to ride for a club until the end of a season, Due to the fact they are Self Employed they can ride for any other club in the world excluding the UK, His UK club do not deduct Income Tax or NI Contributions,but yet they are assets of a Company, Any Accountancy would tell you the system is completely illegal never mind a Legal Expert.

This is a misconception - they are not self employed according to law.  They are unable to turn down work e.g. "I don't fancy riding at Edinburgh tonight" and neither can they arrange for another rider to take on their work e.g. "Ted Spittles will take my place tonight Mr Team Manager".

They are contracted and considered workers, (who have more rights in employment law) even though they account for their own personal taxation.

[SimonB 55]

Employment status is subject to some very vague laws in my opinion.

Technically they are engaged as self employed contractors by each track they ride at, they have to provide their own equipment and employ their own assistants if they so wish. They can ride throughout the EU for as many people as will contract them. Some riders are set up as limited companies and/or VAT registered. I think there is a strong argument for them being self employed.

Where it gets more tricky is the asset system but since (AFAIK) no rider has been stopped from earning a living as a result of the asset system I am not sure what legal basis there could be for challenging it. It has been used to create value within the sport.

[SPEEDY69 1,248]

I think some of the confusion is because you can be self employed for tax purposes but actually a worker for employment law purposes.  The latter is what could have been used to challenge the BSPA 'proposed' rule.  This is the definition of a worker according to Gov.UK and the test for self employed for employment purposes:

2. Worker  A person is generally classed as a ‘worker’ if:

• they have a contract or other arrangement to do work or services personally for a reward (your contract doesn’t have to be written)
• their reward is for money or a benefit in kind, for example the promise of a contract or future work
• they only have a limited right to send someone else to do the work (subcontract)
• they have to turn up for work even if they don’t want to
• their employer has to have work for them to do as long as the contract or arrangement lasts
• they aren’t doing the work as part of their own limited company in an arrangement where the ‘employer’ is actually a customer or client

• Checking their employment rights

  Someone is probably self-employed and doesn’t have the rights of an employee if they’re exempt from PAYE ... 

• Checking if they’re exempt from PAYE Someone is probably self-employed if most of the following are true:

• they’re in business for themselves, are responsible for the success or failure of their business and can make a loss or a profit
• they can decide what work they do and when, where or how to do it
• they can hire someone else to do the work
• they’re responsible for fixing any unsatisfactory work in their own time
• their employer agrees a fixed price for their work - it doesn’t depend on how long the job takes to finish
• they use their own money to buy business assets, cover running costs, and provide tools and equipment for their work
• they can work for more than one client

[SimonB 55]

Even with those definitions, the riders meet most of the criteria.

[SPEEDY69 1,248]

For a worker yes.  The two I've highlighted for self employed they do not meet and these have been used as the key criteria in several tribunal cases over the last year, where the 'worker' was able to refute SE status.  I'm not a legal buff so don't know why I'm going on about it really, it's just that I don't think speedway riders are actually self employed for employment purposes (tax is different).  I will now shut up. 

[The Third Man 2,211]

3 hours ago, sparks123 said:

I have always been in favour of any British rider riding in both leagues in Britain if they want (more beneficial to team GB if Cookie is doubling up compared to Sam Masters for example).

I think that it's wrong that they are allowed to drop down when the majority of clubs have excluded them from their team plans (affected at least 3 team plans).

The riders should have been made available from the beginning of May when it was then a level playing field where any club could have signed the riders not just the clubs who haven't completed their teams.

But again that would be discriminating against them

the rule was wrong, (blame the BSPA for that) so had to be corrected immediately 

 

Edited February 26, 2018 by The Third Man

[Alan_Jones 1,005]

1 minute ago, The Third Man said:

But again that would be discriminating against them

the rule was wrong, so had to be corrected immediately 

 

I look forward to the days of total equality when everyone in a race gets 3 points and Jon Armstrong can see out his career in the junior championships.

[Argos 262]

Can someone confirm or deny that if a new Promotor opens up a new Track and applies to join the PL or CL, the BSPA insists they must have a Retained list to the value of X amount, If this is correct does it mean that the riders are assets of the new Club?, and is it different for each league?

[scaramanga 893]

i always found it strange and funny that if a foreign rider wanted to ride speedway in uk he had to pass a english test

but footballers takeaway workers and such like can find work much easier than home grown uk residents who do speak the native tounge

 

[Tsunami 10,219]

3 hours ago, Argos said:

Can someone confirm or deny that if a new Promotor opens up a new Track and applies to join the PL or CL, the BSPA insists they must have a Retained list to the value of X amount, If this is correct does it mean that the riders are assets of the new Club?, and is it different for each league?

It is correct that they have to have riders to a value of, or place a financial bond with the BSPA to that value. Obviously for the riders to have value to the new promotion, they would have to own them, otherwise they would just be loan riders. The value of the bond is considerably higher in the higher league. If the promotion sells an asset, and they are below the bond value, or now below after the sale, they can be urged by the BSPA to sign riders, or place a financial bond for the difference.

 

NB Asset in terms of holding the riders permit to ride in the UK.

[scaramanga 893]

its more of a way of making sure there is enough credit there to pay the bills if it all goes ** up

thats what i was told years ago from a co promotor

 

[Argos 262]

So if say Matt Ford sold Poole included in the Price would be all is assets, which would be quite considerable, What would happen if KK who is a asset of Poole didn’t want to part of the sale, could he refuse,   

[Tsunami 10,219]

48 minutes ago, scaramanga said:

its more of a way of making sure there is enough credit there to pay the bills if it all goes ** up

thats what i was told years ago from a co promotor

 

That's right, and it is used to pay all speedway debts, that is to the BSPA, Clubs and riders.